Magic & Playing Card History 

Speaker 1

Welcome to be curiously off.

Speaker 2

Lee Asher playing cards and magic.

Speaker 1

So he's Lee usher.

Speaker 2

He's a close up magician, magic consultant, but most of all for us are playing hard fan and historian.

Speaker 1

And we interviewed him for this episode. He's actually worked on TV. He was from the biggest names of magic. He's been a consultant on different TV shows. He even invented some of his own magic tricks. And he was only 15 years.

Speaker 2

He's also the president of 52 plus Joker, a massive playing card collectors club and has spoken and written on a playing card history.

Speaker 3

M.

Speaker 1

And he's a really nice guy. We had a great chat with him and he just loved to share his passion of everything, playing cards and magic.

Speaker 2

He joined us from a very snowy Toronto.

Speaker 1

So shall we go on with the interview?

Speaker 2

On with the interview.

Speaker 3

My name is Lee Asher. I am a second generation magician and my father was also. He's also a magician. I'm also a playing card expert and historian and author. I am the President of the world's largest playing card collectors association. I'm the editor in chief of Card. Culture magazine and probably a whole bunch of other things that I'm. Forgetting right now.

Speaker 1

That's so cool. Yeah. Thank you for joining us today, so.

Speaker 3

Yeah, my pleasure.

Speaker 1

Obviously you've got a really big love of magic and playing cards, so for you, where did it all begin?

Speaker 2

What was the the very origin? Is there a specific person who who got you into it?

Speaker 3

Oh yeah, definitely my father. My father, my father was a young magician in his I think he spent about 12 or 13. He first started. He lived in new. The city and during that time in New York during that period when he was a little boy, magic was everything, you know, tannens magic shop. It was hot like that was the place to be. When when my father was a child. And so he would go to tan and he would go to Al Flosso's magic shop. Actually, he spent more time probably at Al Flosso's than at tannins. And that's where he learned he learned magic. He learned from these great magicians in New York City. And when he got older, when he moved to to Tennessee for university, he decided that he wanted to be a doctor. He wanted to be an optometrist, but he still wanted to be able to perform magic on the weekends. And for fun. It was his love. It was his love. And then he graduated. And my mom, they got married. They moved to Florida. They eventually had me and my sister. And so when I was about seven years old. Is when it kind of clicked for me. You know, I my father was also a collector as well. He likes collecting magic books, magic comics, anything that kind of brings him back to his youth. And so like I said, when I was about 7 years old, I saw my father performing for a group. Of people and thought. Ohh that's pretty cool. And then he showed me my first card trick and. It seems like I had a knock for it. I don't know. We, we'd have to go back in time for me to actually. Look at myself, but there's. Some reason I felt like ohh I could be good at this. You know this feels comfortable in my hands. I understand this in a way that maybe I don't understand math or science in school or you know and it's it just clicked. So. From about age 7 to about age 13, he taught me everything he knew and that and that includes performance at in entertaining not just the the slight of hand at end of magic. He he's a. Big proponent of entertaining, you know he loves to entertain an audience. He preferred to entertain you than fool you. That's always kind of been his mantra. Now he still wants to fool you. But he certainly wants you to smile and have a good. And so he kind, like I said, he kind of downloaded all of that into me. So that was about 13 or 14. And then there was this emptiness for me where I didn't. I wanted more and he couldn't provide it because he himself gave me everything he knew. And we had a whole bunch of books, magic books and whatnot. I I tried to read as many magic books as I could, but it's tough to read. Magic books when you're 13 years old. Especially because magicians aren't authors, they don't really understand how to explain things in a in a way that would make sense to a 13 year old. So I kind of set out on my own path to find slight of hand that would work for me in in situations that I needed it. And. I've been doing that ever since. You know, I've been creating magic. Now I'm. I'm almost 48 and it's it's been a while it's been. A while, but like. I say it's that's what really drives me with with sleight of hand and magic. My father loves the performance end of it, but for me it's about the creation end of it. It's the time spent with myself solving problems and trying. To you know, see a A, a larger concept in a smaller problem and trying to spot problems and solve problems. And that's really kind of the crux of of creating magic is noticing that I didn't like it like that. What if I was a magician? How would I do it? And then I'd solve the problem that way. So to answer your question in a very. Talented that way, my father. My father is my largest influence. He still is. He still performs magic. He is retired. He's not a doctor anymore, but he still performs as much as he can and he. Loves it, he loves it. It's this thing he still collects as well. He's very passionate about his collect. And yeah, he I think he's pretty proud too that he was able to pass along this kind of skill to his son and that that I cared, you know, cause there's there could have been a chance. There's probably a better chance that. I wouldn't have. Cared, but it did. And. I still do. And so, yeah, he's he's kind. Of the guy. That started it. All for me and still inspires me to this day.

Speaker 1

Yeah, really cool. And I think with this. I don't really do any imagine myself, but obviously Anton is, which is why we're talking to you today. So he's got into it in the last 18 months, probably. Yeah. And so I've watched him and he will, perhaps some of his tricks and me and he's done just some events for family say for, but there is some special quality about it and I've I've always loved watching magic. On TV and or on shows. And there is something so good when you are tricked by it and then on the on the other side, you're you're gonna be performing the magic. And I know with Anton as well it's.

Speaker

I.

Speaker 1

I don't know if magic tricks are a little bit love different for. You know I.

Speaker 2

Feel like I understand how it might work more than obviously before I learned some of the things in in magic, which is like a different side of magic, which is almost as nice as not knowing and being like, wow.

Speaker 3

Sure. Sure. You know the thing about knowing how things are done, that's one perspective. You know, like to understand how it works, cool. But to be able to make it work is even cooler and, you know, learning slight of hand so that you can perform magic for someone is definitely like the first step. The first level of of what you want to attain as a magician. But then it gets into the nuances of the slight of hand and the side theology behind, you know, the direction or the misdirection that you're using to entertain and fool your audience. And so it's very much like a golf game. Most people play golf for the first time. Like, oh, this is cool. I need to get better at my swing, and they spend a lifetime trying to get better at their swing. And magic is very much. The same way you know you do learn a couple of pieces of magic. It's pretty cool and. Then you spend a lifetime. Learning the intricacies of how to really make it work. And then it takes a lifetime. It takes hundreds and thousands of times practising in front of audiences, failing miserably. You. Learn more from. Failure than you do from success. Let me say that again. You learn more from failure than you do from success, especially in magic. And so you have to fail multiple times. Many, many, many, many times. You have to get back up on that. Of course. Your time until it gets better. And like I said, it's very much like golf in that sense. Like it is a lifetime of learning. And so to understand it is the first part. Now you gotta get to the second part. And the third part and the 5th part and the 10 thousandth part. And it's a lifetime journey. So if you like it now, there's probably a good chance that you'll continue to like it. As you progress in the art of magic, and so yeah, keep at it. Keep at it and know that, like I said, just understanding it is a small part of it, you know, and and even if your audiences know how it's done, they don't know how it's done because there are so many layers. There's so much psychology. There's so much like I say, direction or misdirection happening. That they they might know 120th of it, you know. But then there's the rest of it that you do know that, like I say, spent. You've spent a lifetime trying to master and perfect.

Speaker 1

And it's from these things where like you're saying you learn so much more from failure than you do from success and I. Guess. In magic, if you do fail, it's a real failure. It can be if the trick doesn't. Work because. Yeah, of the type of spectacle it is. It's it's not like you can be, you can half fail. It's it's all everything I've.

Speaker 3

Yeah, you know, that's it's interesting you say that because sometimes, especially as you advance. Magic.

Speaker

You.

Speaker 3

Learn how to kind of weave in and out of your failure so that your audience doesn't know how bad things have gone wrong. They might sense it a little bit depending on your body language and your face, but the more you fail, the better. At it you get. And so by the time you you're failing, your audience might not really know. And you're able to pull it off, you're able to manoeuvre and zig instead of zag in this position where things went wrong. And so like I said, that takes a lifetime. You know, it's like that. That's very much like jazz in a sense. You know, the song is going this way, but then we're gonna take it this way, this way and. It's. It's it's your show, you're the director. And so the more you've done it, the more you've practised, the more you've performed, the more you've failed, the better your show is, especially as you get older. You know, because you've you've learned from all of your mistakes. I hope you've learned from all of your mistakes.

Speaker 2

How would you advise a beginner to start magic? Just keep going. Failure is part. Of it.

Speaker 3

Yeah, good question. Good question. So for beginners that are listening right now, my best advice is to naturally gravitate toward what you like. You know, when you get into magic, there's so many doors, there's so many doors that you can enter magic through.

Speaker

And.

Speaker 3

Really. Like there's it's very much like collecting in a sense like you, you cannot collect everything in the world. You cannot learn all of the magic in the world. So you have to start to become specific about what you want, what you like. Like I say, naturally gravitate. Toward what you. Like and. So if you watch a bunch of magic on television, you see like vanishing elephants makes you happy. Then gravitate toward it, you know, and card tricks? Nah, not so much. OK, then don't don't go toward card tricks. Go toward vanishing elephants and stage illusions and grand spectacle and start there. And that's probably a pretty expensive place to start because. Elephants aren't cheap.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

And housing elephants aren't cheap, but that's OK that's a different kind of logistics that we can talk about later. But for now, like I say. If you're a beginner. Just figure out what you like and that's not too hard. Just watch a bunch of magic and when you feel this. Feeling inside of all that's really cool. That's where you should start. And you know, kind of gravitate toward that. And there are plenty of books in the library. That's a really great place to start as a library. If you don't have access to a library or it's too far away, let's say you live in a village and library is in a major city. OK, I get that. Then you have YouTube, you have, you know, digital libraries. Do you have all of these online sources? Where you can learn. Magic. Is it the? Best place to learn magic? Probably not. Could you learn magic and be satisfied and entertain people and have a? Great time. Absolutely. So. So. You know again, like if you if you start to learn magic, let's say on YouTube and you wanna now take it in a very serious way then I would suggest you probably not learn anything else on YouTube and start. Moving into books. Or video or going to live conventions or lectures and you know, I mean, like, there's just the different layers, different hierarchies of how you'd want to ingest that information. So for beginners, again go to the library, go on YouTube and start with what you like, and then eventually your tastes might change as you get older. You know, we mature as we get older, some of us not all of us, and like my tastes for card collecting have changed. You know, when I first started collecting, I liked one specific. Thing and now. Ohh my tastes are completely different and then I attribute that to maturity you know and then not that I was. I was immature when I was younger. That's a different story. But in collecting or in magic you know it's it's we're new we have to be new you know you have to start somewhere so start where you are and go from there and like I say naturally gravitate toward what you like. And use the library and YouTube to leverage and and you're on your way.

Speaker 2

OK, so I've made it as a performer and I'm on the stage. What are your tips for performing on stage or to people?

Speaker 4

OK, don't mess up. That's the first.

Speaker 3

No, no, no, no. I'm being conveyed. I'm joking. So you're on the stage and you're performing and you're asking me what's? What's the best tip to continue performing is? That your question.

Speaker 2

It's if you mess up, is it? It's like it's like if you got confidence and keeping that and like if you have to have the correct body language for the audience and things like that.

Speaker 3

OK, I see. I understand it's a good question. Well, if you were, if you've made it to the stage, right, you're a professional magician. There's a good chance you've probably messed up many times before you got to that stage many, many, many times. Now here's. I will tell you this as a professional magician of many, many years. You can still mess up even though you've practised for two decades, things still go wrong. Trust me. And here's the thing. Like when you're a skiing, when you ski, when you're a child, when you're younger and you fall, it doesn't hurt as much. But when you're older, there's there's more room to fall. There's there's a further to fall, and so it hurts more, and that's very much like that when you're a professional magician. Something goes wrong and and you can't get out of it. And it's just it fails. It's it hurts a lot you. Know a lot. It actually hurts more than. When it you first. Started failing right and and that's and, at least for me, that's because it doesn't happen often. So when it happens, it's kind of time to rethink things.

Speaker 4

Why did that?

Speaker 3

Happen you know, is there a way that it couldn't have happened if I did it a different way and and you start rethinking? Your approach, rethinking all of the things that you're doing like for. Instance that was. I think it was 2016, 2015. Maybe in 2014 I was performing in Atlanta and I had to do 2 rooms. There was the small room in the big room. My father was actually there with his wife at. The time his his newly wed. Wife. And so in the small room, things were great. I had a fabulous set like man. It couldn't have gone in any better. And then I went into the big room and I was in the back and I was waiting for my. Turn there was 2 performers in front of me. And I don't know what. I was thinking but I was. Just I started playing with my cards and just zoning out and, you know, being me. And I didn't. I didn't reset my my deck for the next performance. And so when I got up there. It was my turn.

Speaker

It.

Speaker 3

Nothing was going. To work nothing. And I didn't realise it till the first piece until the like the first piece came into the end and now the the reveal happens and here's your card and they shook their head no. And. I'm like no, and the problem with my set at that time was was very much like a Domino's. And if that went wrong, everything behind it is wrong.

Speaker 1

Right, yeah.

Speaker 3

OK. And so in these kinds of situations when that happens, you have to step back.

Speaker 4

And go OK. Was it smart of me to Domino effect every piece of magic in my act like that? The answers? No way. Don't do that again. It's a bad idea.

Speaker 3

Or at least it's a bad idea the way that. I had it. Set up OK, So what?

Speaker 1

Yeah, no contingency.

Speaker 3

It does. It forces. It forces us to reexamine things it. It forces us to understand why that went wrong and the pain that you feel internally also forces you to make sure that that doesn't happen again and you'll do anything in your power to make sure that doesn't happen.

Speaker

So.

Speaker 3

Ask me is my set the same as it was in 2014 or 15 or 16 when I did it and you? Know the answer right away. No way.

Speaker 1

No way.

Speaker 3

Changed it multiple times. Is the set that I have now foolproof? No, no, no, no. The next problem that I incur, I will have to come back and, OK, we gotta rethink this. We gotta change this. And this is the typical life. Of a. Right. It doesn't matter if you're a magician, a musician, into sports, any kind of performance. You have to constantly be reassessing. Your abilities and how things work, and for a couple of reasons, like you don't want to get bored. You know, like if everything worked perfectly and you did it for 25 years, you kind of get bored after a while. Like you. You need a little bit of variety going on. I don't want to fail miserably all the time for variety. Let me make that. Point clear but. This is the kind of things that help us grow. Like I said, I said earlier. Like you learn more from failure than you do from success. So 25 years of success. You're not gonna learn much, fail twice and watch how much you learn. And so my best advice for when things are going wrong because there's a lot of books. To talk about what? To do when things go wrong. And how you pivot to to do this you. Get those are all great, but. No one really talks about like. The six milliseconds that you. Feel when things actually go. Ohh and for me when I was in Atlanta on that big stage and things went wrong and my heart starts pounding and the sweat starts dripping and the lights are getting hotter. Ohh man. You have to remember to breathe. That's that's tip #1. Take a big breath. Tip 2. As you're breathing. Remember, you're not dying. It might feel like you're dying. It certainly might feel like this is the worst time of your.

Speaker 4

Life.

Speaker 3

But the truth is, you're gonna live through it, and you're gonna talk about it as soon as it's over. So that means you get to live to tell. The tale for. Another day, and if you breathe and you keep that in mind, that you're gonna live. It's not as bad. It doesn't make it better. It certainly doesn't lessen any of the pain. It just allows you to kind of shake it off and then move forward. And now moving forward, does that mean that you have, you know, all the tricks work. Nope. From in my case. Nothing worked and I.

Speaker

Had to.

Speaker 3

Change everything on the fly. Go into impromptu routines that had no setups that didn't need any kind of special attention. Just pick a card. Let. Me. Find it, force reveal. Force reveal so. In the scheme of things. Failure is necessary. At the same time. Breathe through it so it doesn't kill you. It doesn't hurt you so bad that you don't want to get back. Up on the horse because. That's that's the detriment of failure is that if it hurts too much, then you don't want to do it again. And if that's the case, then we've lost you. You know, you you won't be a magic anymore. It's the same thing if you were in hockey and you got. Smack on the ice and it hurts so bad. You're like I don't ever want. To. Play this game again. Well, then, hockey's loss, right? That's not your loss. That's hockey's loss. So it's the same thing with magic. If if beginners fail and don't get back on the horse, that's magic loss. So again, my best advice is to you is to bring. And to remember that you're not dying and that things will be OK and you will live to. Tell the tale.

Speaker 2

Was there a particularly difficult trick to learn or some lesson that took a long time to learn?

Speaker 3

Yeah, all of them. Like, there's certainly their slight of hand that's easier to to master than others, but the. Truth is, they all. Take at a lifetime to master. You can be good at something, but that doesn't mean you're great. At it you. Can be great at something. Doesn't mean you've. Right. And so there's all these different layers very much like a golf game. You know, your swing takes a lifetime. Your slight of hand and the mastery of the different kinds of slight of hand take a lifetime. So right now I am not. I would not consider myself the master of slight of hand. I'm still learning. I'm still practising. I don't practise as much as I used to because I have. A family. Now I you know, I have a wife and a dog and like I have other like life responsibilities. So that kind of takes away from practise. When I was in university I had a tonne of time to practise. So.

Speaker 4

You know, I think that.

Speaker 3

It's just it's one of those things. It's going to take you a while and to enjoy the journey of mastering this slide of hand, it's going to take you 50 years. So you're too. You still better like you still better enjoy this process because if you don't, it's going to be a long 50 years. You probably not even make it to the 50 years like you're going to move into another performance or you're going to go somewhere. Magic will lose, you said. So go slow. Find what you like. Be prepared to fail. Prepare to get back up on that horse. I mean, these are these are pretty common things to tell people that have just started in basically any kind of. You know, performance art or anything that new, but but it's all true. It's all from the heart. It's all from. Doing it and failing and and wanting to be a master, I would love to to be a master so I would love to be able. To pick up a deck of cards and be flawless. But that doesn't happen without a lifetime of practise and and it's very much, you know, like it's certainly like riding a bike. Like I don't think that if I touch a deck of cards for five years, I could probably come back to it and we could do some things. It'd be a little rusty. I would probably, you know, have to give me a few minutes. Let me see if I can get this to work. But it it is like riding a bike, you know, it's got muscle memory. You'll you'll remember how to do things. But in order for it to be perfect, I mean really beautiful it that takes like I say a lot of practise a lot. So enjoy the journey. Enjoy the journey is my best advice on. All of it.

Speaker 1

With Anton, I've seen this. I watch him do some cardistry and patches techniques, and I've definitely seen an improvement in the time he's been doing. And as his hands got a bit bigger as well, he's definitely found it. Yeah. And like you say in there, trying to get that perfect routine, it's also say we see watches quite a lot of YouTube videos of people doing cardistry. But then what you don't see there is all the edits and the the failures and the things have done that they've just released a polished perfect output video. So you, yeah, you didn't see anything behind it.

Speaker

Where?

Speaker 3

That's right. That's right. That's right. You know, we see this 32nd clip and it looks gorgeous. But what we you said, we don't know that they filmed it 100 times, that it's got, you know, we edited it with 17 different types of music to find the right one that hits the beat at the right moment. Like it's different than if you were live in your front of an audience.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

You know, and so there's there's it's two different skills, basically. You know, I I'm certainly not going to downplay the skills that you need to produce a YouTube video. It's actually an incredible amount of skill that you need. I don't know if you watch Chris Ramsey like you watch some of his videos. And this guy. Is a movie director, you know, like the B roll he shoots is phenomenal and and. That's a skill. On its own right. And then the editing and then the finding the Music Choice and the right thumbnail. And like, that's the amount of time and practise that that takes is the same amount of time and practise that it. Takes to master slide 10, yeah, so. Yeah, know that? Know that that they are two different animals though. You know performing for your camera and then editing is one thing and then performing for a live group of people is another. And and then there's one is not better than the other. There is no. You know there's no comparison really it's they're different and and and understanding that they're different is the important part because if you decide that you're going to walk in front of a group and not say anything and then press play on your music and then do Carta. Street it might. Work, but what you learned is certainly with close-up magic is that it's about engagement. It's about, you know, breaking that 4th wall and talking to your audience and getting to know your audience in a way that you might not be able to do with the video. Right, like when you're filming a video, there's no one there. It's just you and your camera. When an audience is there, they're going to talk to you and they're going to respond to you and they're going to, they're going to react to your magic or not, or the jokes or not. And so these are these are all these things that that come with magic and learning magic. And Rick, here's something interesting to watch with Anton is. You'll learn you'll learn slight of hand. You'll learn all this great stuff, but what you really learn are life skills. You learn how to speak with people. You learn how to engage with people. You learn how to make something that is inherently boring, very interesting. And so if you master these skills, ohh man, you've mastered a good part of life. Alright, forget the card.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 3

Tricks. And so I think one of the most important things that people can learn from magic. Is how to be just better humans. Right, because this is a gift. I have this gift, and if I sit here in. Front of you and. I show it to you. You now get to experience this really special gift that not everyone in the world gets to see ever in a lifetime. Most people might not even see magic live in a lifetime. So and understanding that and performing and and getting in front of a group, it's more than just the magic, right? It's it's you being a human and then relating to you on a level of. Vanity. And so to be able to do that like people, people like magic, but people like you more right. There was a very famous magician that said people, people aren't interested in your magic as much as they're interested in you. I mean, I've I'm paraphrasing. But. That was basically the gist of it, and he's 100% right, you know, like I think about all the magicians that I'm not really big fans of. I I don't like them, their magics. OK, but it's them. I'm not really a fan of it. So their magic becomes secondary. But if I like you, well, your magic becomes primary. And so really, it's about this, this human engagement, this human interaction. And that's really one of the the real golden lessons to learn.

Speaker

Magic.

Speaker 3

Or any performance art for that matter, unless you're a. Mind, that's healthy.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

But I'm sure that even minds have great ways of engaging with their audience. I haven't seen. So you know, it's, it's this, it's this in turn, it's it's the problem that we all want to solve, you know, is how do we get people to care more about what we do? And and again that comes with all these life skills that that are imbedded in performing magic.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

And that are very hard to teach in books. Very hard to learn on a YouTube clip. Those are the kinds of things, you know, that take the lifetime to master and you just have to go do it. You have to experience it and understand it and reflect on it every time and take your notes and then go back and do it again. And over and over and over until you become very comfortable with.

Speaker 1

I think with magic as well, because it's very intimate, particularly if you're doing close-up card magic, it is you and the crowd, and maybe there's something there because deception is part of it. The trick as well, so that. There's. A trust going on there as well, and that that maybe ain't been honesty in that communication that you're having.

Speaker 3

That's right, not everyone likes to be fooled. You know, it's a funny line to cross, you know, some people get very angry. Some people have to know how it's done and they won't rest until they have something to just calm their their minds and. It's like we're we're kind of playing with fire sometimes. You know, we don't realise we think, oh, let me show you a card trick and then what? You don't realise. Is some people like they it bothers them in such a. Way that like they've. It changes their lives in in. A weird way I. Mean. I don't think they go and.

Speaker 4

They have to be.

Speaker 3

A magician? I don't think that that happens. Sometimes, but for the most. Like they have like, there's this this internal conflict they have in their minds. I don't understand. I thought I knew and I don't know. And this and it makes me question my reality and like again, we're kind of we're we're playing with fire sometimes. And so we have to be very careful. We have to be very cautious. We have to be cognizant that we're doing it. And like, that's why I say my father is more apt to entertain you than fool you. And I bet it if we talk to about it, it's probably rooted in the idea that he wants everyone to be happy. And if you come with just trying to fool everyone, not everyone would be happy. You know, because you're going to get the people that are are bothered by it. My wife is a lovely example. She loves magic. She loves magic. She hates to be fooled. And so it's this, this, this internal conflict she has. And then I see it on her face all the time when she. That's cool and so. Like I say, some people, they love it. It's great. Do it all day long and other people not so much. So we we have to, we have to be Cognizant. You know, we have to understand that we are. We're dealing with some things that are bigger than all of us and so if we have some compassion and some empathy and approaching that I think you'll be OK.

Speaker 2

So you said that you've done magic for a very long time, and I think you've created some tricks yourself as well and some moves. What's the process of making your own moves?

Speaker 3

I have, yeah. That's a great question answer. OK, this is. I mean, I'm going to give it to you in a very basic format and you're gonna kind. Of go. Oh, is that it? And the answer is Yep, that's it, that's it. But here's the difference between the amateur and the professional. The amateur just wants to create magic. OK, great. Sounds amazing. The professional finds the problems and solves the problems. That's the difference. And so if you want to create. Magic watch, a piece of magic. And think to yourself, where is the problem now? Here's the here's the hard part. What you think is a problem might not be a problem, so you really have to understand the inner workings of this of whatever you're watching, and to try to really comprehend is that a problem, or is that just me picking on it? You know, like. But if you really, legitimately. See an issue like. If I had real magic powers, I wouldn't do that like that it. Would look like this. OK. Well then there it is. That's. The. Solve is that if that's the problem now, how do you make it so that it is the way you want? And now you go about thinking, OK, well, if I did it this way, what if I did this and this, and it takes you down all these different roads and sometimes you might not even go to the path that you. You're the end that you wanna get to might take you so far left or so. Far right that. You're in a completely different routine, and that's OK too. That happens actually happens more often than not. But at the end, it's really about spotting the problem and solving the problem, and that is the difference in the amateur and the professional and how the. Green magic.

Speaker 2

You mentioned that you are the you have like like collecting cards and you're the.

Speaker 1

52 and Jaka yeah.

Speaker 2

Yeah, the 52.

Speaker 3

100 plus joker. Yeah.

Speaker 2

What makes a good playing card for you that makes it look good and feel nice? And do you have any? Have you made any decks yourself and design some of? Yourself.

Speaker 3

Yeah. So there's a couple questions that are embedded here. I think a good deck of cards has to feel good to me. And and that's a subjective kind of answer, right? Cause what feels good to me might not feel good to you or might not feel good to you or dad. Or anyone else that's. Listening. So it's very subjective. So, Lee, how do I learn what I like? We question play with as many decks. As you can. From different parts of the world and start to realise, oh, this one feels thinner. This one feels thicker. Oh, this one feels silkier and smoother and and start to figure out what you like. And ultimately, if you really. Start thinking about it. It's a. It's a a journey of self discovery. Right. Like I can't tell you what you. Like your dad? Cannot tell you what you like. We can try to influence you of what we like, but the truth is only you know what you like. And the only way to find it is to do a little search in your soul and to play with as many cards from around the world as possible. And once you kind of go, you know what I like? A deck of cards that's a little thicker. And I like a deck of cards that has some tactile, you know, texture on it and kind of finish. And I like it. And you just Start learning about what you like. Now, here's where it gets interesting and. What you like from today until, let's say, a decade from now, these are arbitrary numbers. But from now until a decade might change. So today you might like this, but tomorrow you might like this. And then a day after, you might like that. And here's what's beautiful is be flexible, be fluid. Like everything, hate everything but learn as you're doing it. So ultimately when you decide, OK, now I have to make a choice. You have all of this empirical data to go fall back on, to go like, you know what, I liked a. Thicker deck of cards. That doesn't have any kind of tactile feel, so a smooth kind of varnish, if you will. And those are the kinds. Of cards that. I like and again I can't give you that answer. Your dad cannot give you that answer. Only you can find that answer. So. Go find cards, go play with cards. See what you like. Take notes. Write it down. When it comes to making my own deck, I did. I printed the deck of cards in 2009. Long before you know, like I, I guess Kickstarter start. 2009 so right around the same time as the Kickstarter craze started happening I self funded. I didn't. I didn't have any like backers or whatnot. It was all privately funded, but I printed a deck of cards with 48. Which is a Spanish manufacturer. They actually they make some of the finest playing cards in the world. They're owned or they were owned by United States playing card company, and now they're all owned by card, Amundi and Fournier, in my opinion, puts out some of the finest playing cards on this planet. And they're they're made differently. They are built, they manufactured. With different raw materials that, let's say, like a United States playing card company bicycle deck. And again, all of this is dictated by my tastes. So what I like about playing cards you might not. And so you might see my cards and go, oh, yeah, these are cool. But I don't really like them. I can't. They're too thick for me. They don't have the texture that I like and and that's totally fair. Those are fair statements. I never got mad at anyone for not liking the cards that. I like. Right. And this is and this vice versa and so. Yeah, my like I said, my best advice is find what you like and then start playing with everyone's cards and see who know who, who, whose tastes. Do you have that are similar? You know, like there's a handful of people in the industry that we all have similar tastes and playing cards and. So when they. Go. Oh I. Found this new deck. There's a good chance I'm going to like that deck because I. Know we like the. Same things. Now there's tonnes of people in the industry that like things very different than I do and so. When they go, all is the best deck in the world. OK, I'm gonna have to feel it for my own and you. Know and judge it that for myself. But like I said, there are other people and you'll find. Other people. And have similar tastes that you do, and then it becomes really fun because now it's just not you looking for the best card. It's you and ten others, and it's this group effort and journey and and adventure. And those are really fun. You know, those are really fun to learn about all the different cards made around the world and cards made in Europe are different than cards that are. Made in the Americas. And cards that are printed in China are different than cards that are printed in. Sao Paulo, Brazil. And so, like you don't know about any of this until you play with it. And so that is my best advice to you and anyone listening. Just go buy a bunch of different cards from. Around the world and see what you like and don't like.

Speaker 2

Let's get on to some of the history of playing cards now.

Speaker 3

We'll do it. We'll do it.

Speaker 2

First question. Difficult question. If you are trying to pinpoint where would you say playing cards originated from?

Speaker 3

Definitely a difficult question. It's a tricky. Question. You know, here's the thing about that and probably with a lot of history, not just playing art history, but especially in playing guard history. You asked 10. Different playing card historians where playing cards originated. You probably get 10 different answers. They might be similar on some level, but for the most part, like nobody really agrees on where. They came from. We have different kinds of theories. You know, there's the theory of cards came from Egypt, or at least the idea of cards like the cards that we're talking about that are from a Millennium ago. They did not look. Like the cards of today. So. You know what? What we're what we're talking about is more of a historical analysis than an actual empirical analysis of this like cards. The cards we play with today didn't really start formulating or looking that way until about the 15th or 16th. Country. And So what I'm talking about is like. 1100 BC I think it was the the Book of Thoth, maybe started to point toward the tarot or cards tarot like cards, because they obviously didn't have the word tarot back then and so. Some, some would say Egypt, others would point to. China and about 800 or in about 900 AD, you have the leaf game, I think is what they was called and there was some recording of an emperor and his family playing the Leaf game and the Leaf game referred to as like Leafs pieces of leaves for pieces of paper. And again it's it's if we went back in time and some. Like time travelling machine and we looked at that those cards, if they were cards, they probably wouldn't even remotely resemble what we play. With today so. Those like I said, those are kind of the origins, or at least the discussion of the origins that we have within playing card world, trying to find magic origins are even harder. But we'll get to that in a second playing cards. So think about if they started somewhere in they started in China, then they started making their way. Cross. The world, and they did that through trading, right? Because you have these different countries that are now starting to trade with each other like these, this global trade, this Silk Road, if you will, from China into into mainland Europe. And so you have all of these trade routes along the way and all these people are starting to, you know, trade, not only silks and. Spices and whatnot. But also the idea of games. Now here's the thing. Cards like anything and any kind of. Manuscript. I don't think they were printing books yet, but let's say around this period they're really expensive. Really. Really. The common person could not afford any of this. Only royalty. You know, only the. Top of the. Upper echelon of society could afford these things because they were handmade, right, like cards were. And cut and painted and assembled and. Called like everything was done by hand. And you know, obviously time is money, it still is. And so if it took you months to make this card and I don't know, that's an arbitrary. I don't know how long cards took to. Make. But if it took. A long time to make and all of these you know, different. Like materials that made the cards were expensive to obtain and like cards were really expensive. And so we have like the the first full deck of cards that's in a museum. It's in the in the the cloisters in New York. And this is. The full the first full deck of. Cards that we know of. And I think only royalty played like there was no way a common person ever got to see. These things and so, and they're beautiful and they're hand painted and like the artwork on this is amazing. And yeah, they of course they're in a museum because they probably cost.

Speaker 4

So much money back.

Speaker 3

Then, and so today they're priced right and then you have, like men look playing cards. It's a very early card, I think from 1314 hundreds and and they don't look anything like the cards that we play with today. They're very long, but they're beautifully designed and they're painted in gold and, you know, and these these were the the initial ideas of where playing cards came from. But to get kind of. To focus in on the things like that. What we like to play with now, like the cards that that we play with. It's more that's more like France. France really has a a hold in in playing card Ville for us. All the court cards that we see even to this day are based on the French courts. You gotta remember quartz like we think of hearts, diamonds, spades clubs. But if you lived in Germany, they had acorns. They had different kinds of suits. Suits were regionalized back then, and it had to do with a where you lived, B the game you were playing, like the everything. Everything had a purpose. And. And the reasoning behind. Why? It was the way it was. Now, today we just use hearts, clubs, spades, diamonds, because that's tradition. But back then they were starting the tradition, right? It was. It was. It was new. And so like.

Speaker

Sorry.

Speaker 3

I. Said about the 15th. 16th century in France and the Old France we have, we have a pattern emerge. We have this court, these courts coming out and it's based on French royalty. And in each country, like in Spain, there were no Queens, so there was no Queens on playing. Cards. For a while, and so if you if you examine cards and you examine the history during the times those cards were made, everything kind of lines up, it all makes sense. So.

Speaker

Like I said, the.

Speaker 3

Cards that we play with today. Really start to formulate. 15-16 hundred, but then the 17 and 1800s is where things really start to the trajectory starts to really ramp up and when cards start to become better. What I mean by that is when cards start to become manufacturing in a way that they can put, they can help, they can pump out more cards at a cheaper price so that more people can afford it. And more people, the more the common person, you can afford a deck of cards, and now they can start playing these games. Then everything changes right, you know, because before only royalty could play. But now everyone can play and it got so crazy. I mean, the, the, the playing card craze was so crazy back then that they had to start passing the. Laws that you.

Speaker 4

Couldn't play cards.

Speaker 3

During the weekday, because people weren't going to work and so on the weekends. OK, you could play. But you couldn't play for money. And and you could only play after going to church. And like they had all these weird rules. Right? Because people. Just like I'm not going to work today, I'm playing these. I'm playing cards, I'm gambling. I'm doing all these things that satellite with playing cards and and it was probably a really, really great time for. Playing cards back.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

There's this. There's this interesting trajectory of playing cards. Start getting better, right? Materials start getting better, cheaper. We're doing it in mass. The cards are less expensive. And because of that, we start to see more card magicians doing magic. Right, because now we can afford playing cards. Card magicians. We're always using cards. But in the 17 and 1800s, now they're it's affordable. It's like really. Portable and everybody plays cards, so it's a very common object to perform with, right? It's very much like performing with coins, right, or a cup and a ball. These are very common objects now and so. We see playing cards as they get better. We also see our magic become more refined, right? Our tools are getting better and so are we. And at a certain point like it's like in the 1500s cards, if you think about paper, like if it doesn't have any kind of gloss finish or coating on it, it's like rubbing 2 pieces of paper. Together. Now imagine like trying to do manipulation and slight of hand. It it happened, we definitely have proof that that happened and there were magicians that published their ideas back then that showed us that that kind of thing happened. But today eighteen 1700. It was easier, it was just easier. To perform with, it's still difficult. Not as difficult as it was in the 1516 hundreds, so again, we're starting to see our magic that we were always doing double lifts in the 1500s, but now we're doing double lifts where the cards are really staying aligned because they're designed to. Right. They're each one of these cards. Now is equal. They're the same size. They're the same thickness. Like, it's all becoming mechanical, industrialised. And so the cards of today are way better than the cards of yesterday. And I would think that if we, you know, had a time machine, we back in time when we showed the magicians of the 15th and 16th century our cards. Today. They'd be really jealous, like, really jealous because the cards are absolutely better today and the cards are getting better because of technology. If you think about it like playing cards are a pretty analogue kind of object, you can't plug them into a wall. They don't. They don't get Wi-Fi, there's no electricity running through them. And so, you know, like how how technologically inclined are they? And the answer is incredibly technologically inclined. They've got 1000 years of technology behind them and how they're made and how they're cut and how they're processed and packaged. And you know, and and this like I said, in the 1700s, all the companies wanted to do was just make great playing. Card so that you as the person using them would have a great experience and all of that innovation came from improving the games or improving gameplay for players. You know, and so all of that innovation. Was driven by that. And. Now you know what are we? What? What's happening? Well, like it's it's kind of the same thing. We have all of these cardists. We have magicians, we have gamblers. We have all these playing card enthusiasts, and they're all doing things with cards that weren't really supposed to be doing with cards. Like Cardistry is a really great example. You know, when they make a deck of cards at the factory United States playing card company, they don't think that these cards are going to be. Sprung from hand to hand and feet were thrown in the air and flipped around like they didn't. That's not how they designed these. But this is these are unbelievable pieces of of innovation happening, and if the the manufacturers saw it and watched and understood all this empirical data, they could go back and make cards even better, which they are. That's kind of what's happening right now and so. The technologies behind making a deck of cards it's immense, like it's most people. Have no idea. The amount of technology that's. Gone into it and within the last 200 years is where we really see that technology ramp up right where it's steam is introduced to machinery in the second industrial revolution. And so now steam driven machines are cranking out playing cards by the minute. By the second actually and we're. You know what took? Days to make one now takes seconds to make 1000. And just the you know, the the sheer volume of things increases in such a way that. We see our map. You know, it's like our magic and cards parallel each other. You know, if if cards are getting better, well, Magic's getting better, too. If cards ever go down, there's probably a good chance magic go down, too. You know, they're, they're very. They're very correlated in a way. And. And magicians don't realise that, you know, we just think, oh, yeah, no cards and we do magic. No, wait a minute. If we examine magic from all the way back.

Speaker 4

Then we'll see.

Speaker 3

OK, they had to work really hard to pull some of that stuff off, not. As hard as we have to do it today. You know, like today we have it much easier because the cards are better and they're designed to be better. They're designed to slip and slide and glide and do all these fun stuff because it helps when you play cards right, it helps when you spread cards or when you shuffle cards and and that's all the manufacturers tried to do was improve that. And so, yeah, Matt could talk history and playing cards and magic all day long, and I will definitely tangent. You know, I don't even remember the original question you asked me because I'm too busy loving playing cards.

Speaker

Yeah.

Speaker 1

It's great to see.

Speaker 3

But yeah, it's it's. It's a very special object you got. To think about. All of the toys that your father played with and his father played with and his grandfather and great grandfather. And like we've been playing with cards for Millennium. And so it's really cool to think about, like, you know, your great, great grandfather was not playing with the Nintendo. Absolutely not. And and there's reason, right? Cause the the electronics went around this. We was playing with playing cards and the same cards you're playing and same suits, same number of cards, same values. All the same, you know and so. That's cool. That's really. Cool and you can't. You probably think about it. You try really hard. You think of a couple of other things in your house that are like that, but for the most part. Probably on one hand, the amount of analogue objects in your home that your great, great, great, great, great, great grandparents played with that you play with. You know and and so that's that's an interesting lineage that most people don't really think about. They take for granted. Do you have any other questions on the history of playing or? You'd like answer.

Speaker 2

I was just gonna mention a couple of weeks ago my granddad got out some old playing cards that he found.

Speaker

Hmm.

Speaker 2

And he was showing how they were, how he remember. It's getting them. So that shows exactly what you said there.

Speaker 3

Absolutely. Do you remember the size of them? Were they bridge size or? Were they poker size?

Speaker 2

There were two, so there's a bridge size deck. In fact, they're just over there. There's a bridge size deck and another one.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Yeah, and the reason why. He probably has a bridge size deck is because the game of bridge was really popular during his time. It's not as popular today like there are still people that play bridge. There's still bridge clubs. There's still people that get together and and and do it up, but for the most part, poker has taken over and so you gotta think about that, right? Poker the size of the card is different than a bridge size card. And do you know why?

Speaker 2

Not really.

Speaker 3

OK. That's OK. That's OK. I'm happy to share the the answer with you. So I historians believe, right, I wanna preface by saying historians believe the reason why a bridge size deck is smaller than a poker sized deck is because you hold more cards in your hand when you play bro. Right. You you hold 1213 cards in your hand, whereas in poker you only hold 5-7 at the most and so you you need smaller, narrower cards if you're gonna hold more of them versus poker where you don't need to have that many cards. And so they don't have to be that narrow. There was a time where they were saying, well, bridge was a predominantly played by women. And so the cards were smaller because of their hands. I think that's nonsense. I think that's nonsense. There were plenty of people that weren't women that were playing bridge. So that's. I don't think that's. The case I think it has more to do with you just hold more cards in your hand when you play the game of bridge. Than you do with the game of poker. And so again, that's the manufacturer looking at the games and going how do we make this easier for everyone? Because if you. Had to hold 13 cards poker sized cards. In your hand. That's a lot. You know, you gotta kind of go through and see which ones you have versus if they were all narrow. It's it's just as wide as if you had five cards and so. That that is an innovation based on the gameplay. And and it's like that with a lot of things, you know, certainly within the last 1000 years of playing cards, it's all been on how to improve gameplay. Within the last couple. Of years, maybe, let's say a decade. Now magicians and cardists we are now kind of in an interesting situation where we we before they the manufacturers never cared about us. I want to say that the manufacturers never paid enough attention to us to see what they could do to help magic or help cardistry. But now they are now they understand that all of this empirical data. What the cardists and magicians are kind of creating and understand? And we'll make cards better. And so and instead of trying to improve a game now, they're gonna try to help improve cardistry. They're gonna try to help improve hard magic inside of hand, and that's super exciting. That's like, whoa, I feel like we've. Made. It you know, like before, we were in the back and the nose bleed seats. Now we got a front row and and that's pretty special. That's pretty special. Yeah, yeah, it's the the cards that you have from your grandfather. Are they British made you know, if they're British made.

Speaker 2

Well, we've got. Carter Mundy, which I think is Belgian.

Speaker 3

Yeah, that's right. That's right.

Speaker 4

OK. Yeah. Ohh there's OK.

Speaker 3

Super cool. Let me show you something. Hold on, hold.

Speaker

OK.

Speaker 3

It back up hold. It back up. Do you see those two little slits in the back of the box?

Speaker

Right there. Ohh Yep. Oh.

Speaker 3

You know what that's for?

Speaker 1

Not really. I did read that and I've forgotten.

Speaker 3

OK, good. We're talking about are these two little slits right here on the? In the box and what it's for is if they don't have those slits when you open up the box, you kind of have to dump the cards out so the cards will come out. But what this slit does is if you take it, you push the slit in so it pops like that. You see that. Now you put your finger in, you can grab all the. Deck and pull. Them out. And so you don't.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker

So that's Chico.

Speaker 3

You don't have to like, shake them out or. And so this is a very cool invention by a man named. Samuel Murray and he was he used to work for United States playing card company actually before United States Plancard Company. They were called Russell Morgan. And so he actually worked for Russell Morgan and he was a draughtsman. He was a a machinist. So he built a lot of the machine. Ones that they used to to print playing cards and one of his ideas was this recess in the box that you could pull cards out. He was a genius like he was a real genius and we credit him. He actually has one of the most important things that he's done for all of magic and Carter Stream playing cardfile he did something for us that. We we we can never forget his name. He was the one before him. Playing cards were cut by hand, you know, like they they had either scissors or machines that like, you know, the the the machines you see at school. Yeah. Yeah, kind.

Speaker 2

OK.

Speaker

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3

Of like put. It in and so. That's how I used to cut cards, but if you think about it, not all the cards were even. And So what Samuel Murray did was Samuel Murray created a machine with steam. So it was like Steam operated and it would take a a sheet of paper. So you print cards on sheet and then it would punch every card out individually. Poop. So every single card was exactly the same. Nice. And that absolutely changed how we manufacture playing cards. To this day, we do not cut cards anymore. They're all punched out everywhere in the world. Punches cards, unless they're like, you know, you're doing very small run, antique kind of things. But in in mass production of playing cards, it's. A punch machine. And it was this guy and this guy figured it out. And he's the same one. Like I said, that created the the recess on the top box. He created a lot of stuff. He was actually very. Very, very smart. And he was a mechanical genius and he was a marketing genius. Is and he eventually left Russell Morgan and opened up his own company and basically kind of positioned himself to fight United States or to to fight Russell Morgan, you know, and Russell Morgan, they were the they were the biggest, you know, manufacturers of playing cards are becoming the biggest manufacturer playing cards at the time when in America. And So what they did is they just started buying up all their competition. And so they basically bought Samuel.

Speaker

3.

Speaker 3

As the story goes, they gave him $1,000,000 in stock and $1,000,000 in stock in 1894. It's a lot and so he he actually came back to work for for them. And when Russell Morgan bought Samuel Murray's company was called National Card Company.

Speaker

Sorry.

Speaker 1

That's a lot.

Speaker 3

By. The way when he bought national, when they bought national and perfection. And all these different companies, they kind of amalgamated them underneath their roof and they changed their name to the United States playing card company, and that's how the United States. Player company comes to be. And so now they own all of this innovation. They own all these machines. They own all of it. And that's when we see a golden age for playing cards, right? Cause what happens when the the world's largest playing card manufacturer buys up all the other manufacturers buys up all these factories, these machines, all this proprietary printing knowledge. And they start making the greatest playing cards ever, and they do it out of their factory in Cincinnati. OH, they break grounds. In 1899, the factory starts churning out cards in 1901, and for the next 100 years, it's like they make the best playing. The cards that. Everyone in the world wants. And especially magicians and cardists performers and what? And they still do, you know, bicycle united by your company. Cards are the gold standard for playing cards, for performing with they're doing artistry or all that. There are other companies that have kind of come into the fold in the last decade or so. But still the the largest market shares the. United States playing. Our company and and they have held it now for almost you know, 140 plus years. So that's that's a testament to what they're what they're doing and how well they're doing it. Yeah. Yeah, it's. Playing card history, man and what I really like about playing card history is it informs me of of world history.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 3

No, like I can I understand.

Speaker

Yeah.

Speaker 3

If this happened in playing cards on this day, what's happening in the world around it, you know, cause playing cards did not happen in a vacuum, and so things are happening concurrently all around. And so to learn that, you know, we're in a civil war, the United States is in a civil war. You've got the north fighting the South. And during this period, a guy decides. Hey I like playing cards. I think it's hard to play cards though because there's no indices on any of these things, so I'm gonna make these little emblems and. I'm gonna put in. The corners and now I've made. Cards easier to play with, and this happens during.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

The Civil War or. Right around like it's 1864. So civil War starts about 1865. And so like during wartime. People are creating and innovating because when we're not firing and shooting and killing people, what are we doing? We're playing cards, right? It's downtime. So you know, like, these are like, it helps to inform the, at least for me, it helps to inform history for me. And so if I can understand playing cards and their history and where they are about in the world, I.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Can kind of relate. The rest of all history too. And and it's super fascinating, you know, because playing cards have documented history forever, like every major event in the world has probably been documented somehow some way on a deck of cards, whether it be the back or the. Face or the box or whatever. So it it it really helps to inform me as to where we are in, in this scheme of things. And I do think I do think for magic specifically for magic and for playing cards cardistry I think we are now in another golden Age. You know, we're in a position where we have the world's largest playing card manufacturer buying up all these other companies and putting all of their proprietary print knowledge under their roof so they can make the best playing cards in the world. You've heard the story before, right? It's the same thing. And that's what Carter Mundy is doing, and that's what they're doing right now. Like, we saw that happen. Three or four years ago. And they bought out United States playing card company and Fournier and all. These major companies. That's another goal is to just make the best playing cards in the world and and for us to play with them and to understand, hey, are these the best? How if they're not, how can we make them the best? How can we explain to the manufacturer this is what we want and so it's a really special time for us because like I said before, we were we were kind of considered the game play. You know, we're part of people who just play games, and now we're we're our own segment, you know. And so that's interesting. That means they'll take us more serious. They'll cater to us interest. Ways and so yeah, like it's it's, it's our role now to play with these cards and express our thoughts and feelings and how to make them better. And it's up to the manufacturers to. Listen and to. Keep up with us and it's it's a wonderful synergy.

Speaker 2

So you told us a lot about the playing card history. Can you? Is there a favourite story or anecdote from? That history.

Speaker 3

Well, there's a lot. There's a. Lot I. I'll tell you one that most people don't know and and I've found. This in my research. So the original owners of the United States playing their company. Were Russell and Morgan. And there were actually a couple of others they used to print posters and like labels and show cards. Before you, before Russell Morgan make cards, they would make these labels. They're really beautiful. Yeah, they're really, really beautiful. And these are from about 187018. They started in the 1860s and 1870s when they were doing all this stuff in 1881 is when Russell Morgan decides, hey, we should be printing play.

Speaker

The United States.

Speaker 1

Oh, wow, that's cool. That's lovely.

Speaker 3

Farms. And so Russell and Morgan, there's a guy. 'S name is August. Ross. Excuse me. August. What's his middle name? Orchard octavius. No. Octavius. August. Octavius. Russell. A Russell and John Morgan. Those were their names. Russell Morgan. And neither of them were really kind of, you know, like playing card fanatics. I mean, they like. Playing cards for. Sure, but they were. They were businessmen, you know, they were into the printing business and the stationary business. John Morgan, this is the story I want to tell you, and most people don't know. John Morgan. You remember. He owns a major playing card company in in Cincinnati. OH, John Morgan is also on the police force of the local police force. And I think he is. Don't quote me, but I think he's. He's a commissioner, but he's he's got some kind of stature. But he's he's up there. And what he would do is he would raid people's illegal gambling outfits if they weren't using Russell Morgan playing cards. So he based.

Speaker

Wow.

Speaker 3

He was putting in the fix for his. Company everywhere. And if you were caught? You know, playing cards which you weren't allowed to do gambling without using Russell Morgan cards. He was. He was busting up your game and you're probably going to gaol. And so I think that's a pretty great story that no people don't realise. Yeah. I mean, that's like a real mafioso kind of.

Speaker 1

That's amazing.

Speaker 3

Move right there. Like he was. Yeah, times were different back then. Times were definitely different back. The CEO of Carter Moody is not forcing anyone, does not work.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

That way. Though I think that the the. You would probably laugh at that story. He'd probably find it pretty amusing. I don't know if he knows it or. Not, but yeah. I like. I think that's a fun tidbit that most people don't know about. I also think here's an interesting tidbit everyone everyone thinks of playing cards in America. We think, oh, it must have been from the colonies, you know, must have come over from England or from the Dutch. And and sure, playing cards did come over that way. But the truth is that playing cards. Were in the New world long before they came with the Spanish. When the Spanish invaded Mexico. And once I think it was, Cortez took over Mexico City. They basically flew not fluent, but they they boated in a playing card press and someone to run it and they were the official playing card printers from Seville, Spain to Mexico City. And apparently they were so good that the playing cards of Mexico were the greatest cards at the time, like the cards were. I don't know. I've never played with any of them. I've seen them, but I never played with them, apparently, like the word on the street was that they were the best and and then we. Like I said, we see playing cards come over once the British and the Dutch start colonising the East Coast of the United States. And then we have the colonies. And here's another cool tidbit. Who was the first person to print a card trick in the colonies?

Speaker

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Trick question.

Speaker 2

No wonder.

Speaker 3

I'll give you I'll. Give you a hint. His brother owned a paper company or he owned like a a paper mill. So they were making pulp. And what he did was he would also he would print his own newspaper, very famous for printing his own newspaper. And he was a big fan of electricity. That should tip it right there.

Speaker 1

Ohh no. Well, these names have left my.

Speaker 3

His face its.

Speaker 1

Head.

Speaker 3

Face is on the $100 bill.

Speaker 1

Jefferson Anderson.

Speaker 3

No, he's on a 20. No, no, no, no. So it's Benjamin Franklin, right? Ben. Frank.

Speaker 1

Thank you. Yes, thank you. I feel so bad for getting the names.

Speaker 3

It's Ben Franklin. Ben Franklin. Well, I think he went to Spain and he's either he went to Spain or his friend went to Spain and saw a magician. And so he came back to the states. And. Or maybe he was in London and his friend went to Spain and went to London and he told him about a magician. And then Franklin came back to the States and invented a card trick. And then printed it and then put it in his newspaper to sell in his. Newspaper. And so that's a pretty neat kind of tidbit that most people don't realise or know about. Do you know that you invoke Shakespeare? When you say the word deck. He actually invented the word deck.

Speaker

Nice.

Speaker 3

Now the word pack was around and obviously the word cards were around, but he he created the word deck. Sorry. He invented the word pack. The pack? No, no, it's dead. It is dead. Yeah. The deck. Your kings, I think, is the first. The first time he uses it in one of his plays, he used it twice in two of his place. I have to look it up. I'm going by memory now. So I had very bad memory. But yeah, Shakespeare was the one that invented the term along with many other. Terms like he was, you know, he was the guy, yeah.

Speaker 1

Yes. Yeah.

Speaker 3

So yeah, like, there's a lot of fun.

Speaker 2

Invented like 2000 words. Something.

Speaker 3

I'm sorry.

Speaker 2

He invented like 2000 words or something, I'm pretty sure, or maybe a bit less.

Speaker 3

Something.

Speaker 2

Bit more.

Speaker 3

Something and deck is one of them. Deck is one of them. And so, yeah, these are these are fun tidbits. These are fun tidbits throughout history and that makes you go. Wait a minute. Were playing cards during Shakespeare's time? Like yes, they were. Yes, they were. They were not playing cards in Ancient Greece. That was not happening. Ancient Roman Greece did not have players. They might have had dice and other games.

Speaker 2

Like that.

Speaker 3

Sorts, but they did not have play.

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3

Because we don't know we. Don't hear any of the. Stoics talk about playing cards. We don't hear any of the, you know, the great literature that comes from that period. No one. Talks about playing. Cards. So it wasn't around during that period, but we do think like I say, some people think it was in Egypt and in Egypt's not too far. And so and then China, which is also not too far in the scheme of things, and and then it kind of makes its way down through the Middle East and then it moves into India and it kind of goes all it it moves all around. And so playing cards, the world has helped shape playing cards and it and it's kind of very. You know it's it's. It makes sense that Carter Mundy is Carta Mundi because they are the cards of the world and cards are of the world. You know, everyone left every country left their mark. And you know it's it's it's really neat to see that. It's like you think about all the the the objects in the world like. Did every country touch every object and and influence it in some way? And maybe, but maybe not. The playing cards for sure.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I love the idea of the history there. We you don't. Well, a pack of cards. Could seem really ordinary and mundane, but when you look deeper into it, you realise, yeah, there's this long history here. It's something that's touched so many people and even like the the manufacturing your social history there, your economic history, your technical history, there's there's so many avenues.

Speaker 3

It's all there. It's all there. How did? How did kings and Queens teach their, you know, their their children about the lands that they? On cards, right, they had. They had geography cards, geographic cards and. So. They didn't have little indices in the corners and you couldn't play games like that as such, but they they would play certain games to teach them when they grow older. These are the kingdoms that. They will be ruled. And these this is geography and and so yeah, cards, cards have been utilised. All different types of ways to. To help humanity move forward.

Speaker 2

How is a modern playing card made? Do you know?

Speaker 3

Yeah. So there's a lot of technology that goes into it and I'm going to give you a real generalised way that they're manufactured. Obviously, different manufacturers have different kinds of proprietary processes that they use. But for the most part, it's so it's two different pieces of pasteboard glued together to make one sheet. So when you hold a deck of cards, most people don't realise this. But you're actually holding 2 pieces of paper glued together, OK, and that's why some magicians can actually split a card so they can peel the cards. And if you've done that before, you might have noticed that the top peels off and the bottom peels off. But then there's this kind of black centre. And most people think that's the third part of the card. A third piece of paper. But that's not true. That's actually the glue that's dried, right? So with the United States playing card company, for example, they have what they call casino quality, playing cards. And what that really means is that they use a darker black. Do so that you cannot see. Through the card when you hold it. Up to the. Left. So if you're playing in a casino, no one can see through the back of your cards to see your cards. OK. And that's accomplished by taking two pieces of pasteboard and then using some kind of opaque glue that dries dark black and then press together and. And so that's how they make cards and cards are printed in sheets.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

So a lot of the decks that you see that are custom decks, for instance, that have really cool foiling and fun and that are made from these, you know these kind of magic companies or these cardistry companies, they're probably probably I'm I mean preface they're probably printed in what's called the sheet Fed Press which means they have a piece of paper just like your whole printer and you feed a piece of paper in and it prints it and the paper comes out the other end. That's it. And that's called the sheet Fed Press and most of the short run decks are run on those kinds of presses. But if you're printing. Let's say like a bicycle deck of cards, where they're going to print 20,000 of these guys in one. Clip then they. Have what's called the the web press and so a web is a big roll of paper that they have to use like a some kind of lift to lift because it's like 2 tonnes. It's huge huge like. Taller than three people stacked up, huge roll of paper and they put it into the press. And it's very much like if you've ever seen newspapers being printed where it's just one long sheet and it's just running and the whole joke is like stop the presses. And the reason why they have to scream that and it's so difficult to do that is because you have to stop it in mid printing because you can't, you can't cut the sheet, right? It's not like 1 sheet that comes out the other and it is the entire roll. That's happy. And so the web press has all these logistical things that that, you know, it runs through. It cures the card, it cuts the card it. Packages the card it's. Like is a multi, multi $1,000,000 press that they use that United States playing Heidelberg. Press. It's very, very technologically inclined. And so that's how cards are kind of made is on these these larger presses and then once the cards come out of the machine and the sheet fed is a little different than the web because the web you know all the coding goes on at the same time and and it's cured through the tunnel, it's a whole process when the sheet bed you've got this. The sheet that comes out now, they put it into the slicer. So the sheet now gets sliced into slices of like 6 or 7 cards across and then those slices get put into the punch machine. They get punched out individually. I should back up. I forgot one step before any of the. Cards get cut. There's texture added to the card. Right. And so most people confuse this so people. Think that the plastic coating. Is the texture, and that's not the case. The plastic coating is the glaze, the the finish, what we refer to as a finish is actually the patterns that are embossed into the paper and those those patterns are what give the card. It's it's tactile feeling. It's it's you.

Speaker

Yeah.

Speaker 3

The this the the grip that we feel on the paper and so there could be cards that have no grip and there could be cards that have a lot of grip and that becomes a preference, right? Like, what do you like? Like I prefer no grip. You all grip like you know, it depends on. Your. Tastes so all the all the. Glazing and the finishing happen at. And and then. The cards get sliced up, packaged up, put into the. Box cellophane up and then. That's how they make playing cards. You could probably go online, I'm sure there's. Probably YouTube video that will show. Maybe not. In United States, playing for a companies factory, but you've got factories in China that are showing their process. You've got, I mean, you can probably find it and it's really neat and super high tech, like super high tech. You know you need a handful of people that know what they're doing that have degrees in this kind of thing to run these presses, and there is nobody that's screaming stop the presses anymore. That doesn't not gonna work. It's too expensive to stop those presses mid, mid printing.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

And you know, they have to ink the presses as the the sheets running through. And so you know, you'll see cards like if you, if you watch it online, you'll see like, they'll run these cards running through it breakneck speed, and they're inking the press as it happens. But as the ink starts to wear away, they gotta reinking. And so there's times where cards are red, red, red, red, pink, pink. Red, red, red. Red, red and so it's like they're it's it's like a it's a a very organic process to print these cards like you you need someone who knows what they're doing multiple people and know what they're doing to be able to operate these presses and churn out really good. Playing cards. You know, I'm pretty sure if they gave me the keys to the factory, I probably wouldn't be able to do it. I'd I'd crank out a couple. They'd be terrible. But yeah, it's like this is some real and like industry inside knowledge to be able to print these cards. And and it's something that's been happening for like I say, a Millennium.

Speaker 1

And then when Anton gets a new packet of cards, he's always really feeling them and how they move together, how the texture we we we started designing some cards just to. Because he loves cards and why not? So he got a sample of different paper types from one of the manufacturers so that we could actually kind of explore how they feel in the hand and the quality of the finish. And yeah, so there's a lot of.

Speaker 3

Sure. Fun.

Speaker

MHM.

Speaker 3

Right. That's right. And that's that's what I was talking about. Like that, that journey, that self discovery. You know, you don't know what you like till you play with it. You don't know that you like those hatch patterns till you touch it and go. Oh that feels good. You know, like I can explain to you like Oh yeah, you need to try this thought with this finish. Doesn't matter until you touch it and you go. Yeah. You know, I like that. I like that. That's good. That that works for me. And it's it's very subjective and it's very special that way, you know? And so it's it's there aren't many. Things that you go on journeys like that for, but playing cards absolutely, absolutely. And so that's cool. That's cool. You guys are designing your cards cause that's a lot of work most. People don't realise how much. Work that takes you know to design A.

Speaker 1

Nice.

Speaker 3

Deck of parts from scratch is like whoa. A lot of work.

Speaker 2

OK. Is that most of our questions?

Speaker 1

I think so. So I I guess a couple more things then would be what do you think it's gonna happen in the future with playing cards? Because there's an amazing history there. I mean, where are we heading?

Speaker

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Well, that's a that's a great question. And my crystal ball has been in the shop for a. While so I don't perfect and. But I do think that if we take a step back and we look at what's happening in the world, we might be able to get an idea of what might happen with playing cards. And so what's happening in the world, right? Everything's becoming digital. We're moving into the metaverse. We're moving into this. Online kind of hybrid universe. And so I think that that's what's going to happen with playing cards is the manufacturers and magicians and cardists. We're all going to have to find ways to make playing cards relevant in this new space. And it's going to take a while and it's going to be really uncomfortable. And things are going to be really. G But eventually it'll hit and then once it hits then OK, now we're into this new space and so I think that the trajectory is the same, right? Playing cards get better, magic gets better. Well, playing cards become digital and get better. Magic becomes digital and gets better. It's the same trajectory. And that brings up a lot of questions like I'm a slight of hand artist. So how do I do slight of hand in a digital world? Am I using controllers like how? I don't know how this and the answer is we don't have an answer yet so new. So. What we need to be doing is jumping it head 1st and trying and seeing and failing miserably every time until we get it right and that includes, like I said, the manufacturers because they too like they have, they have real skin in the game to make sure that playing cards make it to the next, you know generation in the next century and the next.

Speaker

MHM.

Speaker 3

You know. Version of whatever the world's going to be. So I think that in our lifetimes, paper cards will not be going right that that that's not. It's like saying that books are going away in our lifetime. No, probably not. Probably. But. 100 years from now, if you know if I'm able to be alive still, like I'm pretty sure we're going to see things in the digital world and and how that kind of evolves and you're pretty close already, right? You've played solitaire on your phone, you know, on your computer. Those are digital playing cards. You know, you can manipulate them and shuffle them with a couple clicks of the button. And you play with them and.

Speaker

MHM.

Speaker 3

It's just different, right? It's not better, it's not worse. It's just different. And so I think we're headed that. I also think there might be a resurgence of. In the opposite direction. And so we might see manufacturers going. No, no. While we have the digital end, we're still printing the traditional end of things and we're going to try to keep improving the traditional end of things based on how technologies are improving with printing and how they're making paper. And so I don't think that's going away anytime soon, certainly not. In our lifetimes. But that's, yeah, I think, I mean ultimately, I think as cards get better, magic will get better and that's the future. That we will be living.

Speaker 1

Do you think there then that magicians are? Going to be. Maybe the most important people for card manufacturers going forwards because a lot of the games historically were what pushed car development. But maybe those are gonna be more digital, but because magic, a pack of cards that you can put in your pocket, you can bring it out anywhere and then the actual magic. Which is so intimate and maybe you want that more in the real world. In many cases you you you like that as a genuine kind of act happening in front of you, a genuine deception, not some trickery digitally. So perhaps magic is going to be most important.

Speaker

Right.

Speaker 3

Right, it's not CGI. Yeah, I think Magic has always been important for that reason. You know, like if you go back in time with magic, you know, we were the oracles. We were the the shamans. We were the the people who the rest of civilization would come to us and ask us, what do we think? What will the future look like? What does it hold for us? And we always had the answer. We were always, you know, on the. The the cusp of of cutting edge. And we still should be, you know it. It's changed a bit. Magic went from this mystical, shamanistic kind of thing to more of an entertainment thing during, like, the the Italian Renaissance. And so we're still kind of in that entertainment end of things and not so much in the shamanistic end of I know who's calling me to ask me my thoughts for, you know, Nostradamus predictions here. But they're asking me to perform. So we're still into that mode, but I do think that magicians have always played a very important, crucial role in society in that being that Oracle, being that, that. That link between the mysterious and unknown and the rest. Of the world. And and we've always played that. I mean, we've always been ahead of technology. We've always used technology to our advantage to help fool audiences. Nothing's changed.

Speaker

MHM.

Speaker 3

Nothing's changed, you know? Like everyone's doing tricks with apps and phones. And, like, we're all using technologies. And now we're we've got, like, AI moving into the realm. And so, you know, it's it's, it's a really wonderful time to be a magician. It's a really wonderful time to love playing cards. I don't have an exact answer of what the future looks like because if I did, we'd be playing the.

Speaker 4

Right now. But I do.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 3

Think I do think. That, like I say, as technologies improve, magic will also improve and that's that has been a constant for a Millennium.

Speaker

Yes.

Speaker 3

So I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Speaker 2

Is there anything you'd like to add, or any plugs or things like that?

Speaker 3

Cheap plugs, cheap leasher.com.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 3

You know my best advice to anyone that's listening if you really like playing cards is to go buy a bunch of different cards from around the world and start playing buy cards from China, buy cards from Brazil, buy cards from Europe, buy cards from England, buy cards you know from America. And just start playing. See what you like. Make notes, you know. And no, there is no shortcut. No one's gonna tell you. No one has the answer. It's only you. And. And what's what I again. What? Going back to the beginning of what I like about magic is the time spent with myself solving problems. So you can imagine how. Much I love. Playing with cards from different parts of the world and understanding them and trying to figure out what I like because that is time spent with myself. And and so you know it's it's a, it's a benefit. It's a benefit that when you start to learn those kinds of things and appreciate those kinds of things and understand those kinds of things about yourself because it it translates to many other things. You know it translates to life in a way. And so I'm comfortable being able to soul search, you know people have a hard time. I'm not sure. I don't want to spend. I'm scared to spend time with this man. I love to spend time with myself, that's all. I do you know? Because it's it's. It's very rewarding for me. And so I I would hope that others would find that kind of reward. I know that we're all different and unique and so not everyone is going to enjoy the things that I enjoy or like the. Things that I like and that's totally cool. But I do hope that. They you do find what you like and what you enjoy, and that's important. Because if you do that, the quicker. You do that the better off we can have conversations. About that kind of stuff. You know, because if not, it's then it's very one sided and it's only me telling you what I like. And if you don't know what you like, then you're gonna like what I like. And that's that's a shame, you know, because you might like something that eventually one day I might like, and I wouldn't know about it until you. And so I don't want to cheat anyone out of those opportunities, you know, go go do your homework on your own. And trust me, it's not hard homework. You're gonna like it. And and you'll find what you like. You'll find what you like, and then everything gets much better from that point on.

Speaker 1

Thanks very much. That's that's brilliant. Thank you for taking the time to talk to us today.

Speaker 3

Yeah, my pleasure. Thanks. Thanks for asking guys. I appreciate anyone who wants to know more about playing cards or talk playing cards.

Speaker

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Yeah. Anything I should say?

Speaker

So.

Speaker 2

Just thank you for coming on the. Podcast.

Speaker 3

Yeah, my pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. And if you guys have any questions about history or magic or playing cards or whatever, I'm really easy to get a hold of. As you know, my, my, you know, as [email protected], you can visit leeasher.com. There's your cheap plug leeasher.com and. And I'm always I'm always available to talk playing cards. I'm always you know.

Speaker

Yes.

Speaker 3

Interested in discussing it and every once in a while someone will e-mail me. Something that I don't know you know, and I love when that happens. I love when that happens because that forces me to go learn more. And and spend more time with myself and. So. Yeah, yeah. Again, I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to share these kinds of thoughts with your your listeners. And yeah, maybe one day we'll meet in person and you'll you'll show me some magic.

Speaker 1

Yeah, that'd be really cool. Definitely. Brilliant. So thank you so much for your time, Staley. And yeah, it's been fantastic chatting to you and yeah, you your clear love and passion for playing cards and magic. I mean, it's really come through, so thank you.

Speaker 3

My pleasure. That's that's all I know. And so they say, if you're gonna do something, do it the best. And so I'm kind of under that. I'm putting. So I'm.

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3

Gonna do it. I'm gonna do. It the best I can and and I'm happy. I'm happy that other people care too, you know, because ultimately I do this for me. I do this for my enjoyment and my love. And if anyone else doesn't care, that's cool. But if other people do care, well, that's a bonus.

Speaker 1

That's right. Yes.

Speaker 3

Yeah. And so I I appreciate that. And I and I appreciate being able to share that kind of information with people who care.

Speaker 2

Thank you.

Speaker 3

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Alright, I'll.

Speaker 1

Thanks very much.

Speaker 3

I'm sure I'll be. I'll see you guys. Our paths will cross one of these days. Alright, guys, thank you so.

Speaker 1

OK. Thank you. Take care. Bye bye.

Speaker 3

Much for your time, OK. Right.

Speaker 1

Danton. Are you feeling inspired after that?

Speaker 2

Yeah, we started designing some playing cards ourself and that's inspired me. To. Keep keep going with those a little bit.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I never also been lots of magic and things. Haven't you?

Speaker 2

MMM. And knowing that. He created his own trick when he was 15. I mean I can do it too.

Speaker 1

Yeah, that's something to reach to definitely. But during the interview, Lee was actually very modest about self promotion or as he said, the cheap sell, but we really want you to check out Lee. Dot com. That's L EE Ashe r.com where you can find out more about him. He can get his book on card history and magic tricks and all sorts of things.

Speaker

Yeah.

Speaker 2

And if we love playing cards, you definitely need to go to 52 plus, Joker at 52 plus joker.org.

Speaker 1

That's right. Yeah. So go check that out. And lots of cool stuff there for everybody who likes playing cards, whether it's modern or antique or everything in between. Yeah. So I really hope you enjoyed the interview. We definitely did.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Yeah, really cool. So thank you very much, Lee as well for taking the time with us. Absolutely fantastic. But Speaking of promotions, you should probably check out our website as well at the.

Speaker 2

Curious of child dot.

Speaker 1

Com. That's right. It's been a long time and on social media, just search for.

Speaker 2

The curiosity of. Because we've updated our.

Speaker 1

Thingy. Yeah. Or probably still the curse of a child as well to find us there. Even though we are now just the curiosity of or search for Curry child pod. And yeah, follow us there. Join our patron as well where you get some bonus content.

Speaker

Hmm.

Speaker 1

Which is really cool and.

Speaker 2

We sent our T-shirt to leasher as a thank you. So buy some of those so you can be just like him.

Speaker 1

Oh yeah, in the store. Yeah, you can get the elite Asher, lol.

Speaker 2

At shopthecursivechild.com.

Speaker 1

That's correct. It's been so long. You can't remember our website, but no. Worries. Anyway, thank you very much. We should be back soon, maybe with a additional episode on a bit more hard magic history.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Thank you. Goodbye.

Speaker 2

Actually, before you go.

Speaker 1

Oh yeah, sorry.

Speaker 2

Maybe I'll do a magic video, potentially on the patron. If I don't, then we'll cut. This. Bit out or something? Well, no.

Speaker 1

This isn't being cut. This is now pressure for him to do an amazing magic video for all of our lovely patrons.

Speaker 2

Ohh well, you'll only find out if I've actually done the video. Which I probably would have on our Patreon.

Speaker 1

And if it's not there, he's magically made it disappear.

Speaker 2

Yeah. Well, maybe you're just not in a high enough tier, so you.

Speaker 1

Incredible trick.

Speaker 2

Have to upgrade.

Speaker 1

OK, that's enough. Blanton capitalism there? So goodbye. And I love you.

Speaker

Yes.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And uh, you're in Toronto, aren't you? I I just checked, actually. Yeah, it's much colder there than here.

Speaker

Yes.

Speaker 2

Wow, we we rarely get snow. I think I had snow once or twice in my lifetime, so not that often.

Speaker 1

Yeah. No. Keeps you warm though. Fly me. Yeah. Not too pleasant then. Yeah, they they find you freezing in the morning under the layer of ice and snow.

Speaker 2

What a start.

Speaker 1

We're in Guernsey, which is a small island in the English Channel off the North Coast of France. Ferrer Islands are north of Scotland, aren't.

Speaker

They yeah.

Speaker 1

Yeah. Yeah. So we're we're, yeah, we're to the South. Yep. Yeah. So we we can see France just on the horizon on a nice day. UM, we would be, yeah, we're closer to France and Dover. So do you know uhm. I suppose Poole and Portsmouth and things right in the middle of England, we're kind of due South of there about 100K away. Uhm, yeah, so that they'll be, yeah, ferry links and you can fly. So most of the flights are to England. Yeah, but there's a ferry service to the South Coast of England and a few to France, mostly to the UK though. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, very different to Toronto. Oh yeah.

Speaker

MHM.

Speaker 1

Yeah, very nice. Cool. OK. Yeah. Thanks for agreeing to chat with us today. So umm, I think what we'll do, let's double check how you have hit record even though we haven't officially started yet. Just so I don't forget. Yeah, OK that's going cool. So if we a podcast, yes, yes, yeah.

Speaker

Yeah.

Speaker 1

I did. UM, yeah. So I think the plan will. Be. A little bit of history of uh cards and magic and things like that. Similar to uh, the talk you sent through, but but it's nice and relaxed and informal and fun. Hopefully it's the the the kind of vibe we gave for and I think and I've got a few questions about magic and things as well. The ends, like any tips or suggestions and stuff would be cool. Yeah. So I guess if we start. Just asking you to introduce yourself in a moment, and then we'll go into if that's OK.

Speaker 2

We have got some connectivity problems at the moment, so if we drop out then that's probably why.