Transcript
This transcript is automatically generated so may contain errors.
Speaker 2
Welcome to the curiosity of poison. This episode hemlock, our most dangerous recreation yet. As we make poison.
Speaker 1
One of us dies again, so we're hoping this isn't the last time we ever recorded.
Speaker 2
Yeah, fingers crossed. It won't be now. I actually did a poll on Twitter saying our next episode would be the most dangerous one ever. And should we attempt it and we haven't released an episode since then, so people are probably worried. And but 87.5% of people said yes, do it.
Speaker 3
OK.
Speaker 2
So we're not going to disappoint our fans. Are we? But as we're talking about boys in this episode, just a quick disclaimer. We'll be talking about poisons, their history and their effects, and obviously poisons are dangerous, toxic substances and very, very dangerous. So you never play with them, never consume them or give them to others. During this episode, we will also cover several historical remedies. Which probably aren't actually that effective and should not be taken if you're poisoned to make sure that you seek professional medical advice. Really. So with all of that out of the. Way, shall we? Begin. Yes. So do you want to start with maybe testing some poison? We're ready. Yeah. No. OK, So what do you think of poison is?
Speaker 1
Something that isn't good. When you ingest it.
Speaker 2
Yeah. So ingestion. Yeah. So some sort of substance that you can eat will drink. Or something then.
Speaker 1
MHM.
Speaker 2
Yeah. OK. So you can define a poison by saying that is any substance that causes harm to a living Organism so they can be organic, such as plant toxins or inorganic such as lead or arsenic. Poisons can work in several different ways, so you have some such as cyanide, which are enzyme inhibitors. So do you know what enzymes are and what they do?
Speaker 1
They eat stuff and break stuff down.
Speaker 2
Yeah, and they can help speed up reactions in your body. Chemical reaction. So they're a catalyst for it and they help your body perform its functions more efficiently. So if you have something that inhibits that, it's going to stop your body working properly. And poisons may also interfere with neurotransmitters in your nervous system, so they disrupt the signals that are used for your body to function. One example is portfolium toxin, AKA Botox, which paralyses your muscles and will make you really limp.
Speaker 1
Isn't Botox the most toxic thing?
Speaker 2
According to some people, it is. Yeah, there's different ways of measuring what the most toxic thing is, but it's definitely up there. Some people say that, yeah, it's the most deadly thing. It's also what women like to inject into their face. Another common type of poison are those that cause cell damage. By breaking down the cell membrane. Which will then lead to the death of the cells. So examples of those might be snake venoms or radioactive substances. Now, some of these seem more obviously dangerous than others, so you're going to stay well clear of snakes that might bite you or radioactive material. But deadly plants. I mean, there could be some growing in your garden right now that you don't even know of. But are very, very dangerous and poisonous. One of the really important things to understand about poisons is that most substances are actually poisonous in the right, or rather the wrong tastes. As Paracelis said, all things are poison and nothing is without poison. The dosage alone makes it so thing is not a poison. So what you're seeing there is that anything's poisonous like oxygen is poisonous if you have too much of it, it's toxic to our body. So really, it's the dosage and something that's very, very dangerous in the tiny amounts is what we would define broadly as a poison. Now, Paris seller sees regard as as the father of toxicology. The study of negative effects caused to living organisms by chemical substances and he was born around 1493 and given. Name.
Speaker 1
Philippus Relius, Theophrastus boom. Bustos von Hohenheim.
Speaker 2
He started studying medicine around the age of 16 and basil, and then he later moved to Vienna, where he and his medical doctorate and after his studies he travelled through much of Europe, seeking what he called a universal knowledge. He was living in the world of the early Protestant Reformation, which is a time of great change in turmoil and questioning, and it seems to have inspired his views on medicine. And whilst he was called hunting around Europe, he seemed to have a habit of upsetting people, usually by questioning their beliefs, and he was actually forced to move on several times. He was meant to be quite prone to bursts of abusive language as well, particularly those spouting on tested theories and one contemporary of his said.
Speaker 4
The two years I passed in his company, he spent in drinking and gluttony, day and night, he could not be found. Sabre an hour or two together in particular after his departure from Basil.
Speaker 2
He also wasn't a fan of Hippocrates for humours. Blood yellow, bile, black bile and phlegm. So what do you think? He replaced those with then?
Speaker 1
Earth. Fire. Water there.
Speaker 2
Nearly. Yeah. He uh devised something called the Tria primer. And for him, they would explain the workings of the human body. And he thought, well, I have 4 different substances when only three would do, which were sulphur, mercury and salt. And through balancing those and. God knows what he said, that you could basically do all sorts of medicine.
Speaker 1
Just primary colours, but materials.
Speaker 2
Pretty much, yeah. Now paracelis bombast us, I think we should call him thought.
Speaker 1
That can we just call him bombastic us?
Speaker 2
OK. Yeah. Bombastic us thought that all illness was caused by imbalances in these substances. And to me, that doesn't sound like a great leap forward from the BIOS, does it?
Speaker 1
No.
Speaker 2
It was more the way he is thinking about how they influence the body that was pioneering, because bombast us understood that everything has the potential to be poisonous. The device is what makes. The poison. So you take something that BCC is positive and beneficial, such as vitamin A. Now, if you if you have too much vitamin A, your skin can literally peel off your body. Not really nice is it? And this has happened to Arctic explorers who ate the livers of seals and paid the bears.
Speaker 1
I think that fact deserves some sort of sound effect. Ambulance.
Speaker 2
Where is it there?
Speaker 1
Well, that was worth it.
Speaker 2
Yeah. OK. So yeah, this happened to Arctic explorers eating the seals and live as a polar bears. So just 30 Browns, a polar bear liver could be enough for that horrifying outcome. He also saw that otherwise dangerous substances, when utilising small doses, may actually be beneficial. To us. What was important was very careful study, observation and testing, so his fundamental idea of the truer primer might have been very much at fault. But the processes that he used to try and understand it were not, and that actually laid the groundwork for modern toxicology, pharmacology, and the application of chemistry in medicine and is incredibly important. And our understanding of poison and disease today down to how they work at this cellular and molecular level and bon Buster said. If disease put us to the test, all our splendour, title ring and name will be as much help as a horse's tail. So in other words, no help at all. Doesn't matter who we are. If it poisoned, the fate will be the same for us. So should we take a look at our? First, poison, OK. So if I say the name Socrates to you, who do you know who I'm talking? About. Yes. Who was he?
Speaker 1
Probably say has a Greek philosopher born around 470 BC and he's one of the Big Four. Wait like the big fours like fire, water, air and he's one of the big foundational names of Western philosophy, I mean. Off the top.
Speaker 2
Of my head. Yeah. Very good, mate. I'm impressed, actually. Your schooling is obviously doing something for you.
Speaker 1
Now.
Speaker 2
Apparently they're talking about. Apparently he was also pretty annoying.
Speaker
Please.
Speaker 2
Because what he really like to do a bit like bombast us was question people and challenge people then find contradictions in their arguments. And if you do that enough, you're going. To. Get up people's knees and really put them out of joint, aren't you?
Speaker
Hmm.
Speaker 2
Now one of his biggest followers was Plato. Have you heard of him? Yes. What can you tell me about? Plato guy.
Speaker 1
He learned from Socrates and he is also another Greek philosopher. But later than 470 BC.
Speaker 2
Incredible. Incredible. And yeah, and and actually most of what we know about Socrates is from Plato's writings because Socrates himself didn't really leave much. So have you heard of Plato's? Dialogues.
Speaker 1
They were. Philosophical text written by Plato of. Obviously primarily as conversations between Socrates and other characters. So basically Socrates in fan fiction.
Speaker 2
Nice. So one of them, which was called apology Plato has Socrates saying the young men who have the most leisure, the sons of the richest men, accompany me of their own accord and find pleasure in hearing people being examined. They often imitate me themselves, and they undertake to examine others. As a result, those who are examined by them are angry with me. Instead of being angry with themselves, and they say, Socrates is the most abominable person, and it is corrupting the youth. So do you understand what was being said there?
Speaker 1
Yeah, people don't like him because he's teaching other views. And then the younger people are taking on those views.
Speaker 2
So what happens to those who question authority?
Speaker 1
They get put to death.
Speaker 2
And what is a good way? To execute someone's beheading. Or maybe more on topic in this episode.
Speaker
Hmm.
Speaker 1
Pleasing.
Speaker 2
Poisoned the air. So what we've actually done is recreated the poison used to kill Socrates, haven't we? Can you remember what some of the ingredients were?
Speaker 1
Hemlock.
Speaker 2
Yeah. So we went out searching for hemlock, or rather hemlock water drop wart, which isn't exactly the same plant as the hemlock used to kill Socrates. But it is related and. We just as deadly. And we don't have the proper hemlock over here. And as we're famous for our recreations, and on the insistence of our Twitter poll, we must now re enact the death of Socrates.
Speaker 1
OK. Speaking of which, if you want to see us preparing the poison with actually quite a good video that's over in our Patreon, you can get that for I think in the second tier.
Speaker 2
Yeah, be the second year. Yeah, about $5.00 a month. And you gonna help support the podcast?
Speaker 1
Yep, you can even just do it for that. That one video. But not only do we have that, we've got whole bonus episodes and another three videos so much more. So go do.
Speaker 2
That. Yeah. Thank you. OK. So yeah, go watch that video and then come back and listen to. Us trying the poison, so we need to decide in our roles first, say Socrates was accompanied by some of his friends and disciples, and they would actually describe the effects of the poison on him and say, would he to them. So do you want to be Socrates or his, or do you want?
Speaker 1
To be their friends. You know what? I think I'll take one. For the team and I'll be.
Speaker 2
Socrates, Are you sure? I I feel really bad I. Think I should be Socrates. Fine. OK. Thank you.
Speaker 1
He's lying. He doesn't feel.
Speaker 2
Bad. Let me just. I'm from the poison.
Speaker
Look, look, look, look.
Speaker 2
I'm a little bit nervous about this so. It smells absolutely awful. OK, it doesn't taste great. Let's see if I can get through this bit before it takes. Effect too much. OK, in Plato's writing Socrates remained very calm, leading some to believe that the poison given to him may have actually contained crossed opian seeds, which would have had a sedative effect, luckily. And we had some puppies in the garden, so we added those. Now Hemlock has no known antidote, and every part of the plant can. Heal you when ingested, a highly toxic alkaloid called Conine enters your bloodstream. Now, canine affects your nicotinic receptors in your nervous system, and these are really important for sending signals around your body to make your muscles function, including automatic functions such as breathing and when poisoned with hemlock. You feel a slight paralysis travelling through your body. It starts at your extremities. Let your hands or feet, which I'm definitely starting to feel now, and I feel it's gradually spread as a tingling in your muscles and. And. Which then start to convulse and very weak. And then you become paralysed. Comes up through your stomach to your abdomen. And then you feel your chest muscles tingle and also start to slow as the breathing becomes harder. Now what's really distressing about this is through all of this process, your mind actually remains vaporised and conscious. So you're actually aware of everything that's happening to you. But by that time, it's too late. And in your last moments, your diaphragm ceases to move and your lungs become still. And then a fame forms and covers the corner of your mouth like here and. Yeah. And at this stage, the sheer panic and inevitability and helplessness of your situation must lead to a bit of a mad and crazed.
Speaker 1
Oh yeah, I'm saying that I'm not.
Speaker 2
And thoughts in your head as your heart gives its final beat. And unable to take an oxygen, he die of a fixation.
Speaker 1
Well, he's dead now, so I'll carry on myself. I'm not sure he's going to edit the episode, but Oh well, we'll see written here. Script is awful. So if there's no hemlock antidote, is there some way I can make myself immune to its effects or protect myself from different poisons?
Speaker 3
Method ideas, huh? Method ideas and on?
Speaker 1
The three dates.
Speaker 4
No mythra edites.
Speaker 1
Mythra dieties the Great was a Greek king who lived from 135 to 63 BCE and a fierce opponent to the Roma. It said that in 88 BC he ordered the mask of 150,000 Italian residents in western Anatolia in just a single day, although that number might be exaggerated a bit. And no one was spared. Not even the women or the children. The Romans were understandably unhappy and declared war and mythra deities. Ah, they would continue to battle on and off for the next 25 years. Being a king who has spent a quarter of a century antagonising the Romans would obviously leave you feeling a little paranoid about your own. Safety, intrigue and treachery were part of court life. His father had been poisoned, possibly on his mother's order. So in an effort to protect himself from would be assassins, Mythra deities began a new fitness regime. He exercised regularly to increase his strength, always carried a weapon, and took an interest in the dark arts of toxicology. Fearing he'd be the victim of poisoning, he tried to learn everything he could. He studied and examined every toxin he could find and experimented with potential remedies. And how do you? Think he did that? Hello. His dad. He experimented on prisoners. And his hard work paid off for it said he discovered a universal antidote capable of neutralising all known poisons, which you really should have taken. This antidote was named after him and called Mithridatism. He he'd regularly ingest it to maintain his levels of protection, according to planning the elder, his concoction contained 54 different ingredients, including. Anise, cardman, ginger, turpentine, resin, frankincense and murr, but no gold. They were mixed with honey to create a chewable tablet. It may have even included micro doses of varying poisons and venoms, allowing his body to form an immunity to them, a bit like a vaccine. I think we've done an episode of vaccines, so go listen to that one as well. Other ingredients may have neutralised particular toxins or induced vomiting to purge the body. Plenty, however, was sceptical, he wrote.
Speaker 2
The Mithridatic candidate is comprised of 54 ingredients near two of them having the same weight. While some is prescribed 160th, part of one denarius. Which of the guards? In the name of truth fixed these absurd proportions. No human brain could have been sharp enough. It is plainly a cherry parade of the art and a colossal boast of science.
Speaker 1
Despite being invulnerable to all poisons, the hilt of his sword contained a lethal dose should he have to kill himself. And that day came in 63 BCE with his latest war against the Romans going poorly, he gathered his two younger daughters. A Greek historian, Appian, continued the story.
Speaker 2
They asked him to let them have some of the poison 1st and prevented him from drinking it until they had taken some and swallowed it. The drug took effect on them at once, but upon methodologies, although he walked round rapidly to hasten its action, it had no effect because he had accustomed himself. To other drugs by continually trying them as a means of protection against poisonous.
Speaker 1
The two princesses died, but Mithradates didn't had his antidote made him a mortal. There are two different accounts. Appian writes that he asked a friend to kill him with his sword, so he had not suffered the embarrassment of being paraded in a Roman triumph. But Cassie Astir says his death was brutally hastened by those loyal to his son. So what do you reckon? Do you think he really created a universal antidote? You're gonna contribute or you just gonna? Lie there. Ohh raised from the dead.
Speaker 2
Yeah, sorry about that. I've drank some milk. Now I'm feeling much better. Because their method write is, remedy seems like a lot of effort, but don't worry because the ever reliable Pliny the Elder has plenty more. And one of his remedies for poison was drinking milk. And in his natural histories, he has a chapter dedicated to remedies for poisons. He writes. If you're poisoned by henbane, mistletoe, hemlock, or the flesh of the sea hare, then ***** milk will neutralise the toxins. He didn't actually mention cars much, but as Guernsey cattle have the best milk in the world, it's actually a remarkable restorative quality on me. He also mentioned many more remedies and I want us to rate how effective that we think they are out of 10.
Speaker 1
So we're doing a rexy pause inside of this episode. Poison pot. Terrible name.
Speaker 2
Shall we begin? We're going to start with. Here's rennet now. Rennet is made from the stomach lining of young animals, and it contains loads of enzymes. And it's effective against poisonings and will even prevent injury from poisonous animals. Can also help with toothache if you inject it into your ear. So do you think it? Will work.
Speaker 1
Uh. I'm not quite sure, but it does seem to have. The sort of opposite effects of what poisons are, so I might. Counter it.
Speaker 2
OK, so rating out of 10?
Speaker 1
Seven. Because I can sort of see. An idea that's that's without hearing the next ones because the next ones could be like chickens.
Speaker 4
OK. Yeah.
Speaker 2
Yeah. And maybe like you said, the enzymes might have some effects. Perhaps they can break down the toxic molecules. OK. Next up we have the burnt hair and horns for Seagate. Now this is meant to help with venomous bites.
Speaker 1
That's not going to work.
Speaker 2
Are you sure? Waiting already? Yeah. 00, OK, what about applying the stomach and also the intestines and guessing as it mentions Dong of a she goat to the point that's been poisoned.
Speaker 4
00 again why?
Speaker 1
It just doesn't work.
Speaker 2
Who's not gonna cure you?
Speaker 1
Actually -1.
Speaker 2
Minus -1, my and she's vomiting. OK, let's try a couple more, shall we? What about preventative measures to stop us getting poisoned in the 1st place? What about wearing amethyst or tapers to protect you from poison?
Speaker
Hmm.
Speaker 1
Right now I'm saying one.
Speaker 2
OK.
Speaker 1
Because I reckon the placebo or thinking that it might work of these and having it with you, it's going to have some.
Speaker
Hmm.
Speaker 2
Effect, do you think placebos can actually stop a poison?
Speaker 1
Yes.
Speaker 2
OK, so we try a few more sensible ideas for dealing with poison. Yep, the first thing you should do is take immediate action. And you should also try and induce vomiting or purging. Now if you've swallowed the poison, what you want to do is try and expel it from your body as quickly as possible. Now plenty. He also advises to avoid eating animals that are fed upon poisonous plants, even if they seem unaffected, as their bodies may still contain the poisons.
Speaker 1
That's very wise.
Speaker 2
And we see this quite commonly today with animals, the food chain. They often contain dangerous concentrations of toxins that accumulated. Time like, say, some fish in the water. They will have mercury and stuff in.
Speaker 1
Them it's like microplastics as well. Yeah. When I swear you done an episode on. That, yeah, you did the.
Speaker 2
Episode on plastics.
Speaker 1
Yeah, look at that. I have to say it as well.
Speaker 2
So that's Morgan device and Penny also mentions wearing masks to prevent the inhalation of fumes during various industrial. This is. And as equate from him here, from his writings. The breathing passages should be protected during the operation, otherwise the noxious and deadly vapour of the lead furnace is inhaled. It is hurtful for dogs the special rapidity, but the vapour of all metals is so to flies and knats, owing to which those annoyances are not found in mines. So good advice covering your mouth. Of uhm, a cloth or something he actually describes using a bladder. When working with Cinnabar, which is a red mineral consisting of mercury sulphate, often used as a. Document. Which I voted on upside down, yeah.
Speaker 1
That, that, that, This is why we need to write the everything is linked.
Speaker 2
Yes, persons polishing Cinnabon workshops tie their face with loose masks or bladder skin to prevent inhaling the dust, which is very pernicious. So these last two substances lead and mercury, now the both toxic. But unlike hemlock, they don't act quickly and they actually slowly and accumulate in your body due to repeated exposure. And this has made them very hard to detect and determine them as a course of illness or poor health. Which shows that poisons can act in many ways. Now one particularly horrible one is strict 9. I mean, even the names I was, it's going to kill you. It's not a nice word. Is it strict 9?
Speaker
Hmm.
Speaker 2
And it's an alkaloid found in a plant of the strictness family, which is common to the tropics. And it's most concentrated in strictness, not vomit, a. So do you think it can translate? Latin.
Speaker 1
Strict Nos makes you vomit.
Speaker 2
Pretty much, yeah. It's means vomits, not. Now, despite this being a really, really deadly poison, people actually used to use it as a bit of a pick me up because in very small days it can leave you feeling energised. And in 1984 Olympics, Tom Hicks used it to help him win the gold medal in the marathon and taking strict name will actually increase the new activity, which leads to increased muscular activity. But never, ever, ever, ever take it for that, because it's more likely to kill you in a particularly horrible death. Do you want to find? Out how it kills. You OK? So as little as 100 milligrammes if they are ingested within 15 minutes, you'll start to feel your heart race. Your blood pressure rises, your breathing becoming rapid, and you begin to go blue. Production levels in your body drop so that begins to drop from every pore. Your jaw begins to lock and the panic then really starts to settle in as breathing becomes hard and agonising pain erupts from your chest and your back arcs to the extreme, the muscles suffering, hypertension and spasming. You cry out, desperate for it to stop sending fame and spittle flying as your face becomes the richest grin of the insane and all control is lost. You wish for death. And with a high enough face, that may be your fate. Freed from agony after just 30 minutes. But if you're less lucky, 24 hours of madding torment remain. And worst of all, the strychnine has made you hypersensitive and you feel all of this with greater clarity than anything you have ever experienced before.
Speaker 1
OK. Oh, that's a nice picture.
Speaker 2
Is actually a painting. This is somebody who's suffering from something different there. But it's the same effect on the body. Yes, you can see that, that terrible kind of what you call, like, the rictus kind of grin.
Speaker 1
Yes.
Speaker 2
And sardonic smile. But luckily, Stricklin is also the bitterest substance we have ever discovered. I think you probably know from your actually a survival guide actually, that bitter tastes of something that should be avoided.
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Speaker 2
So we've got a case here from the 1800s of the Lambeth poisoner, now, Thomas Neill. Cream was one of the most notorious murderers of the 1800s, killing at these 10 people in three different countries. Some people think they may also be Jack the Ripper, but as he was in prison at the time, it's highly unlikely unless they let him out at night. During his 1892. Trial the body of one of his victims, Matilda Clover, was exhumed so it could be examined for evidence. The pathologist removed parts of her liver and stomach and ran them into a paste. What do you think, he? Did next.
Speaker 1
Peter.
Speaker 2
He did? Yeah. Yeah. He tasted it. And they think it's really distinctive bitterness. He administers some to a frog, and then he watched as it convulsed and died, which is a classic of striking poisoning. Now Thomas Neil Cream the murderer, was found guilty and hanged.
Speaker 1
He looks like a very nice gentleman.
Speaker 2
But we can't talk about poisons without mentioning one of the most famous of all Conway, which is arsenic.
Speaker 1
Arsenic eaters of Austria. In Steria, high in the Austrian Alps, the locals began mining the mountains. In the 1600s, arsenic was contained in the minerals they snouted, and it would deposits of white powder which they collected. They then sprinkled this all over their food and dissolved it in drinks. No one knows exactly how or why this begun. They'd start with just the tiny amounts and slowly increase their dose until they were regularly consuming enough to kill a person. The locals said it aided their health and prevented disease. Women said it improved the complexion of their skin and gave them a more curvaceous figure.
Speaker 2
Hey Lala, I see what say Lala in German.
Speaker 1
When knowledge of this habit was reported upon by Swiss naturalist Dr Johan Jakob von Chidi Christi. In 1851, no one believed him. It would be considered a myth for nearly 25 years, until in 1875, at the meeting of the German Association of Arts and Sciences, 2 of the Arsenic eaters were introduced to the audience. Dead. Not really. They both ate over 300 milligrammes of arsenic. This must have shocked the onlookers, who wouldn't be expecting to see them again. Well, not alive anyway. But the next day, both men greeted to the audience in perfect health tests of their urine, confirmed the presence of arsenic trace elements of arsenic can be important for some creatures, stimulating the production of haemoglobin and increasing blood flow, which may explain why they said it gave them such great health benefits. An interesting side effect of eating so much arsenic is after death it slows decomposition as it kills the bacteria normally responsible for putrefaction bodies exhumed from graves over a decade after burial exhibited what's called arsenic, mummification and was still clearly recognisable to family members. Some say this is where the myth of the vampire originates.
Speaker 2
Yes. And we all know that vampires love to drink blood, and arsenic helps it to flow. Now arsenic is a naturally occurring element that has long been used as a poison. During the Renaissance, it was nicknamed inheritance powder. Its use was mostly limited to the upper classes and it wasn't really commonly available to the general public, but on the 18th and 19th centuries, and revolution was happening, chemistry was being born, and with it a new understanding of the chemicals that made-up our world. Check out our elements episode and this led to a slew of new products which were being produced at an industrial scale for the first time, and many of these would actually turn out to be. Deadly. Because we were learning how to process and distil and extract different molecules and study their uses and effects, and when something was useful or found to be useful. And there's a big race to bring it to market and there's a boom in the sale and use of chemicals in food for pigments as cosmetics and medications. And very often as rat poisons. So if you had to raise an infestation, you would have needed to have hired a rat catcher and they were expensive and slow, but now you could do it yourself. And the most common ingredient in most rat poisons would have been arsenic. And there are brands such as. Butlers, vermin killer and rotten rats, which is basically arsenic with a bit of coal dust in it for colour. And they're already heavily advertised. And there's a few ads here for rough. Fun wraps. And say he's going to eat it there, which is not a. Sensible option as it also their hair looks like.
Speaker 1
A rat tail. It does, doesn't it?
Speaker 2
What is that telling you? This is the text from one of the adverts, Ruth and rats. The thing does I had found at last asked chemist races or oilmen for rough on rats. It clears out rats, mice, beetles, reaches flies, bedbugs, insects, round Moss, et cetera. So now poisons were coming into the hands of the common man, and with that, the fear of murder was at an all time high, say laws such as the 1851 Arsenic Act in Britain did control their use, and manufacturers began substituting the ingredients for less dangerous ones. But the fear remained. Historically, assassination through poison due to its stealthy nature, was viewed as a particularly insidious and treacherous way to kill someone was also seen as the realm of women and the cowardly compared to the manly honour of combat. And whilst the history books are filled with female poisoners, they're equally filled with men seeking political gain or power. If you chop someones head off with the sword, it's pretty clear what happened, but a slow acting poison that takes them in their sleep. Now that's a different matter, isn't it?
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Speaker 2
And some poisons may give off symptoms in the victim, but these could easily be confused with more mundane like causes of illness or death, and many poisonings could go completely undetected. Their symptoms subtler and slower. Acting may be building up in the body over time until it led to a catastrophic failure. And this could confuse the nature of the death. How do you prove otherwise without sophisticated medical practises and equipment that are actually able to analyse the chemicals in the body? But one of the first written works to include details and forensics was the elements of medical Jewish prudence by Samuel Farr, published in 1788. And this book addressed the intersection between law and medicine, and it included 12 pages of poisoning, citing six types, acids, outlines, narcotics, gases, plant and animal. And it also contained a few simple tests that could be used to help you get detail. Over what may have been used to kill the person, it wasn't until the 1800s that doctors and chemists began to develop accurate tests when reliable evidence was required in the courtroom. And as more and more cases came to light, there was a heated debate about the reliability of the tests. I mean, how was it actually possible to discover an invisible course of death? Teams of lawyers would argue for each side. Pioneering forensic scientists were called as expert witnesses, and they would become national celebrities and high profile cases. Would fill the papers and they'd only further etch the poison into the public imagination. By looking at the actual numbers in Britain, France and Belgium, the number of incidences was climbing. In the 1800s and they would reach their peak in 1860s and 70s. So with the prime time when you had all these highly manufactured poisons and like rat poison, etcetera. And it's estimated that in the 19th century, 20% of all murders in Britain were committed with poison.
Speaker 1
When's Sherlock Holmes? So I was thinking when they're saying like the so they've become national celebrities and stuff from discovering the poisons. Uh, the poisonings, I think of times.
Speaker 2
Yeah, could be a big inspiration there of having this. Yeah. Very famous detective. And records from the Old Bailey were called 83 poison trials between 1739 and 1878. There, 63 of those recorded after 1839, so the numbers were increasing, but still not a great number for the amount of fear that was causing. And then you'd find in different countries they would have different top poisons. So the French love phosphorus and copper salts. But the English preferred appreciates and strychnine. But all of these were far behind the poisonous pastor child arsenic. So the actual percentages of poisonings was pretty light and if they're so hard to detect, maybe they were more in more common use than people realised, so better tests were needed. So enter James Marsh and the marsh test. Now. He was born in 1794 in Kent, in South East England, and he was of right-handed chemist and he worked for the Royal Arsenal, developing fuses and generally improving the guns of the Almighty Royal Navy. He was even an assistant to the Super scientist Michael Faraday. But improving guns isn't going to unveil poisonous. And what is best named for is the marsh test, which was used to detect arsenic. Now, there was already an existing test, but it wasn't very reliable, as James discovered in 1833 when he was called as an expert witness in a murder trial. Now, John Bodle was accused of murdering his grandfather George, and when Marsh performed the standard test of the day, he did find traces of **** neck. But by the time he presented his evidence to the jury, they'd actually deteriorated and his proof was insufficient to convince the jury that Boodle was guilty and he went for. Britta would later confess to the murder, but by that time it was too late and he could not be tried again. So really frustrated that this marsh knew that a better test was required, something that could prove beyond doubt that arsenic was the cause of death. So he spent the next few years hunched over his workbench, toiling away until in 1836 he perfected the process. And he used an arrangement of glass beakers, tubes and pipes. Marsh would take some finely minced dishy from the victims body and heat it in acid. This would destroy the organic matter and just leave behind any arsenic in the solution. Next, zinc was added to this solution which created arsine gas and that smelled of garlic, as identified by Carl Wilson. Sheel. You may remember from our pigments episode for Shields green.
Speaker 1
MHM.
Speaker 2
This gas was then ignited, which oxidised the arsenic back into arsenic and water vapour and finally the arsenic would be collected and a cold ceramic bowl held in the jet of flame, and this would leave a silvery black stain where the arsenic was deposited. And this test was really, really accurate and it was able to detect quantities of as little as 200th of a gramme. I think of our scale as that we use for kicking. And how little at ram of flowers, missus. One 200th of that. How do you even invent that process? It's amazing, isn't it? They call the steps occasionally. How? How did people get that knowledge? What James Marsh did was incredible. I mean, he's working with something that is impossible to see, and it's like searching for a needle in a million haystacks and devising a chemical magnet to pluck them out. And when you do find the needle, how do you even merge the correct one? It doesn't have a label on it, it's only through the work of thousands of people for generations, collecting, testing and sharing knowledge that we can understand the fundamental building blocks of life, the universe and everything.
Speaker 1
42.
Speaker 2
Yes. But there has been times in history when science was art, and one of the first trial was used in the marshes. Test was the Lafarge poisoning in France, 1840 and it really captured the public imagination and filled the daily newspapers with the reports of. Now, Marie Fortune Lafarge was accused of using arsenic to murder her husband and the marsh test would be used to prove her guilt and such as the public fever for the case that actual demonstrations of the master tests would be carried out in saloons and in public lectures. And it was even retreated in a play for a while. We were hooked in the new wonders of science and chemistry, and finally, safe from the spectre of invisible poisons.
Speaker 1
Yes, that was poisonous.
Speaker 2
Well, what do you think about how people can come up things like the March test?
Speaker 1
I don't know. First you gotta understand.
Speaker 3
Yes.
Speaker 1
What the problem is? And work out how to solve the problem. I think that's actually quite insightful. So if you learn anything from that, this episode learn that you have to learn what the problem is.
Speaker 2
And solve the problem. That is very sound advice. Yes. Hmm. Now it's been a long episode. So shall we finish off with the famous Anton?
Speaker 1
I've been here the whole time.
Speaker 2
With a different famous suntan. OK, now whilst you listen, I have a delicious treat for you to eat. Aren't you lucky?
Speaker 1
Like.
Speaker 2
And you're not worried as it's a poison episode and I'm giving you. Food are you? Wait there. I'll be back in a second.
Speaker 1
What is that?
Speaker 2
Alright, be careful. It's hot. Let me just sit. Down again.
Speaker 1
Ohh, that doesn't. That sounds like porridge.
Speaker 2
You can put some honey on. It if you want, yeah.
Speaker 1
Do you want some?
Speaker 2
I do you have a spoon? Yeah. I don't have a spoon.
Speaker 1
That's true.
Speaker 2
OK, as you can probably hear, Anton is clinking his spoon as he mixes the honey into the mixture. I've just given him and he doesn't know what this is yet. Has he tried it?
Speaker 1
Today.
Speaker 2
Yeah, I'm going to tell you a little bit about it.
Speaker 1
Good. It's like Jelly. But honestly, it just tastes like honey.
Speaker 2
OK, time for a famous Anton. Say Anton von Stork was born in 1731 in southern Germany. How do you start eating yet in Germany? His mother died when he was only three years old and his father when he was just 10. So his early years were spent as an orphan in the Viennese poor house. But despite all of this, he and his brothers actually got a good education. Mel Cure became a professor of anatomy at the University of Vienna, and Mathias became the physician to the Grand Duke of Tuscany. Anton, he would actually treat Empress Maria Theresa, one of the most powerful women in Europe, for smallpox isn't her episode than that and later become her personal physician.
Speaker 1
I think we've.
Speaker 2
Linked 5 episodes we have everything is linked. But how did Anton von Stork relate to poison? Did he try and murder the Empress in order to sway the power politics of Europe? Yes, no.
Speaker 1
No.
Speaker 2
Exactly this famous Anton is known as the father of experimental pharmacology, and he formed the foundation of what we now call clinical trials. He was interested in the medicinal yeast of poisonous plants, so remember what paracelis bombastic.
Speaker 1
Bombastic. Bombastic.
Speaker 2
From pastors said that it's the dose that makes the poison. So could the powerful effects these deadly plants be used for good? After all, fake remedies have used them for years. But von Stork, there wasn't a believer in the doctrine of the signatures, do you? Know what that is?
Speaker 1
No.
Speaker 2
OK, the doctrine of the signatures. Is the idea that you can understand a plant by what it resembles, say, walnuts look like brains. They must be good for the brain.
Speaker 1
Ohh yeah, we've done a little bit on that. Another episodes, yeah, probably in courts made as an episode. There's another episode.
Speaker 2
Another one. Yeah. The plant eyebright. Looks like eyes. It clearly helps you with eye infections, etcetera and things that look like hearts going to help your heart. For Anton, this wasn't enough. What he wanted was real evidence, not just fake beliefs and anecdotes. So what he did was he began testing and analysing plants such as hemlock and henbane, using a three-step process. First, it tests the poisons and animals. Then he tests them on himselves and then he test them on his patience, keeping detailed records of the dosage and the effect. And in 1760 he published a book by the title of. A little book which shows hemlock not only a safer internal use, but also at the same time a very useful medicine in many diseases which may up until this time be declared as impossible to. Cure.
Speaker 1
That's the whole.
Speaker 2
Book that is the whole book. It is a very little book, but a long, very long title. And in this he studied how hemlock could be used to treat things such as joint pain and spasms. But increasingly in small, controlled daises, this wasn't his only little book. He had published several others in different plants. For instance, he wrote about foxgloves, which are poisonous.
Speaker 1
Yep, they are tested by me actually.
Speaker 2
You like. Yeah. Which makes me think of that X-Files episode. That's when I first fell in love. With poisons.
Speaker 1
Everyone's going to know what you're.
Speaker 2
Talking about and he he observed that they could have beneficial cardiac effects and today we extract digitoxin, a chemical which is used to help treat people. With heart failure heart issues. Now, it's actually really difficult to find any information in English about how effective his medicines are, but I did find one German article which I translated which says that do you want to read this? You're good at German.
Speaker 1
Stalk fast fat actually hit my spoon. Stalk thus one of the first to stimulate the farmer, called dynamic testing of the drugs and try to introduce the principle of the similarity rule into therapy by trying to justify his theory as follows. If Strassel Neum makes healthy people mentally ill through confusion of mind, why can one not make an attempt to use it to change the mind of the mentally ill? That's really good German.
Speaker 2
That was amazing. I actually thought that you had become the other Anton.
Speaker 1
No you didn't.
Speaker 2
No, I didn't. You're right, in other words. If something makes the same crazy, can it make the crazy sane? So maybe not all of his ideas or treatments were effective, but the key takeaway is the process and measured approach of trial and observation. And what seems obvious now was a revolution at the time. That the only reliable way to test anything is through testing it.
Speaker 1
Wow. Incredible that took until when was it like 1870? Was he to workout?
Speaker
Aren't I? 80.
Speaker 2
1760. And now we use this process to discover the drugs that have improved to save countless lives around the world. Incredible, isn't it? Mm-hmm. Anyway, so did you enjoy your little treat I gave you?
Speaker 1
It was kind of. It was just like Jelly. I know all bees, that's really hard to describe it. UM. That food.
Speaker 2
Well, this picture I have here is what you just ate. You just had tapioca.
Speaker 1
No.
Speaker 2
Which is made from the tubers of the cassava plant, which is native to South America like potatoes.
Speaker 1
Yeah, another episode.
Speaker 2
Now, today it's grown throughout the tropics and is a key crop for over half a billion people in the developing world, as it's very drought resistance and can grow really. Well, in poor soils. It can be used in savoury dishes or sweet dishes like you just had, or it can be made into flour for bread and cakes, and you can open up your. That towel up in front of you now. So you can see what it. Looks like before it's cooked.
Speaker 1
Wow.
Speaker 3
End of asthma.
Speaker 2
You just tripled our subscribers of that.
Speaker 1
Yeah, that should be patron only.
Speaker 2
Yeah, that put it down. Yeah. So do you recognise it from some?
Speaker 1
Of your playing cards, it looks like boba, like the Boba playing cards. Oh, is this what the 8th episode link? Because we've done enough. God, I'm playing cards well and that counts us too, cause we got.
Speaker 2
Yeah.
Speaker 1
The interview and the episode, no. Yes. Incredible work. We're just too good.
Speaker 2
We are, yes. The. What's it called? Tapioca. Yeah, it actually has really, really poor nutritional value. And I was going to say, look at the nutritional information in the packet. But as I say, noisy, I've got a picture for you here. So can you just go through that little thing for us, please?
Speaker 1
Total fat 0 grammes saturated fat, 0 grammes, trans fat 0 grammes. Cholesterol 0 milligrammes. Sodium 10 milligrammes. Total carbohydrate 12 grammes. No sugars, or dietary fibre either. Or protein 0 protein either.
Speaker 2
Yeah. So one serving gives you basically 0% of your daily requirement of anything.
Speaker 1
So it's like just eating nothing.
Speaker 2
Yeah. And what's it? Half a billion people depend on this daily for their.
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Speaker 2
Feed requirements, but what? What are you talking about this in the poison episode?
Speaker 1
I don't know.
Speaker 2
Do you want? To find out. Yeah, it's because cassava tubers contain cyanogenic glycosides which when they react to the enzyme in your saliva release, hydrogen cyanide.
Speaker 1
And you tell me that after we've eaten it.
Speaker 2
Yeah. You've eaten it? Yeah. Which is highly toxic. Like many plant based poisons, it has a bitter taste. But if you have sweetens your traffic with honey and sugar you might not take it. What did I tell you to put in your tapioca, honey? Did you taste any bitterness? No. Have I tried my tapioca?
Speaker 1
No.
Speaker 2
And so. But luckily what you've just had has been processed to remove the toxins through various methods such as soaking, mashing, heating and drying.
Speaker 1
OK.
Speaker 2
Which is very similar to how potatoes are prepared before the safe varieties for bread. It's the episode 46. We're lucky because I can just buy that. Be processed, but imagine if you had to prepare that every day by hand, as millions of people have to do.
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Speaker 2
It's a lot of work. Happy, wouldn't it? Something like your is your staple diet food. It basically gives you no sustenance and you've got to go through massive efforts to us. And and it goes to say that poisons are often closer to the everyday than we realise.
Speaker 1
MHM.
Speaker 2
Humanity's long connection with poisons is a tale of both our dark and our light sides, as well as our endless curiosity. From the punishments of antiquity to the murders of the 1800s, it has long held our fascination and our fear. But his use has never been as common as his insanity. Headlines would have you believe. And through the hard work of countless individuals, we have mastered it to make the inedible edible. And the toxin the life saver. Our fascinations with poisons isn't going to fade any time soon. So just be careful what you choose to eat. So what do you think of poisons now mate?
Speaker 1
Much more interesting than I originally thought, and that they're not just poison. They can be used correctly, I think. Bombast US was right in saying that. There. The poison. Everything's poisonous in wrong amounts.
Speaker
MHM.
Speaker 2
Yeah. And what I always find amazing is when you get some animals which will be immune to some sort of poison. Then another one eats it, so it's very much they'll be killed by it. So it's very much. Whatever the chemistry is going to happen in your body.
Speaker 1
Hmm.
Speaker 2
But as we said at the beginning, poisons are dangerous, so we are highly trained professionals, so we knew exactly what we were doing today. But please do not try and replicate any of our experiments and try poison yourself if you find yourself feeling ill, please seek medical attention immediately.
Speaker 1
And follow those steps or whatever it was for. If you have been poisoned that we mentioned earlier in. The episode, yes.
Speaker 2
OK, that's the upside over. So we've got a couple of primates. To do now, yeah. What's the cloud tongue?
Speaker 1
I don't know. You just have to listen, like I said.
Speaker 2
Yeah, we'll have to listen and the order of the jackalope also going to be speaking at intelligent speech.
Speaker 1
2025.
Speaker 2
Which is on. February the 8th? I think so. Make sure you go to intelligencespeechonline.com. Let's check that.
Speaker 1
Live.
Speaker 2
Yeah. So if you go to intelligentspeechonline.com, you can buy tickets to the conference, which in 2025 is on the theme of deception. And we've got some really cool speakers coming up this time. And we'll play play the trailer for you in a minute. So make sure you have a listen to that and buy your tickets and use the promotional code. Curiosity to get 10% off at checkout and if you get them by them in the next couple of weeks, you can also get them for $20 rather than $30 as.
Speaker 1
Well, so like a little early.
Speaker 2
Bird. Exactly. Yeah. Early bird tickets are now on sale. So go get them.
Speaker 1
I quite like we've just loaded up the website. And I like how in the. Hero Photo's biggest word is just cocaine drops.
Speaker 2
Used for toothache, yeah. Yeah. Another example of chemicals being used in different.
Speaker 1
Ways I guess so.
Speaker 2
So thank you very much and shout tickseed long for us to get to this episode. But you know, dealing with poison, it's very dangerous topic and we had to train and prepare ourself through having methodia or it's called.
Speaker 1
Yep. And what we didn't do, we actually edited out the month gap between you dying and then waking back up. So that's one of the reasons why it took a. Bit longer as well. We did. Yeah that.
Speaker 2
Was that was awful. So thank you very much. Where can you like find us? I mean, what can people do to follow us and support us, Anton?
Speaker 1
They can leave a review wherever they're listening.
Speaker 2
That'd be great, actually. Please do that. It really helps us and we'll read out the best ones might. Even send you a T-shirt.
Speaker 1
Yeah, actually they can get a ticket for intelligent speech with code. Curiosity. They can find us on X.
Speaker 2
At curiosity of pop. Our website curiosityoffpod.com you can go to Patreon and follow us there.
Speaker 1
Patrons exciting. We've got lots of things for this episode. Like I mentioned earlier, we got the video that we've done on creating the poison. We've got a sort of. Mini ranking.
Speaker 2
Yeah, many episodes. Yeah, rankings and poisons.
Speaker 1
Of poisons and a secret which you have to subscribe to our patron for.
Speaker 2
I think that's probably it. We'll try and be a little bit more regular than our episodes. I'll do something less dangerous. Than poison. Next time I think Yep. So thank you very much. And yeah, leave a review. Tell your friends about us. Don't try this at home. The boys and bit that is and see you.
Speaker 1
Soon. Ohh, and don't try the podcasting bit at home otherwise either because more competitors.
Speaker 2
Yeah, too many already. You're right. Yeah.
Speaker 1
We'll have to eliminate you.
Speaker 2
Yes. And we know how now.
Speaker 1
Bye. Bye. I love you. Bye bye.
Speaker 3
He's only gonna hear this when he said maybe you can take this and at the end or something. I don't know. Hopefully if he picks up on this. Daddy sounds like he sounds like he's a rubbish guy. He is awful and podcasting.
Speaker 1
You want them to hear that? Nothing. Why did he? Laugh. Ohh.