The Devil’s Picture Books and Wild West Magic

Speaker 1

Welcome to the curiosity of playing cards Part 2.

Speaker 2

Yeah. So let's get on with this. So this episode.

Speaker 1

We take a peek at the Devil's Picture books.

Speaker 2

I look at how Thomas Delery transformed printing and playing cards.

Speaker 1

And we head to the Wild West to meet a Mystic namesake of mine.

Speaker 2

That's right. And actually Antonio's on the tail end of the cold, which he's given to me. So I'm on the uh. Whatever the opposite of a tail end is of the coat.

Speaker 1

Basically, basically we've both got colds, so that's why we either sound weird, sniff a lot, or cough a lot.

Speaker

Yes.

Speaker 1

Hopefully a lot of that will be.

Speaker 2

Edited out there. Oh well, I'm a fine editor now, which I'm about to demonstrate. As you know, we haven't had a theme scene. Check this out. Are you ready? I think you'll like this.

Speaker

Father to son. You've always done.

Speaker 2

Podcast.

Speaker 1

Just stop. Let's see.

Speaker 2

OK. OK, good. No. OK. So we got on, Yep.

Speaker 1

That's just not for lying at all.

Speaker 2

Let's get. Let's get on with the episode. So after our chat with the brilliant Lee Asher, we wanted to cover a few more things about magic that we've uncovered in our research. So if you've not heard the interview, make sure that you go back and check it out before listening to this. So. It was really interesting and inspiring chat with Lee, wasn't it? Yeah. He's really passionate about magic and playing card history, and he had some great advice, I think for you on performing and like critically learning from your mistakes. So I discovered a book by a lady called Miss May King Van Rensselaer, who is also the author of the hit 1882 book Crochet Lace, Etcetera. I mean, I'm sure that's a best seller, that one. And in 1890s, he published another book by the title The Devil's Picture Books, and it was a history of playing cards. So when I saw that name, I was really intrigued, thinking, oh, like, what sort of history are we going to have in here, particularly from the late 1800s, I thought maybe there be some. Odd tales or stories or things in there and difference of opinions. What we have today, Miss Rensil. She was actually a very serious lady and on the 3rd of January 1917, the New York Times ran an article about her exploding a verbal bomb at the Historical Society's annual meeting. And I I've got a quote here, which has been recorded by Brie from Pontifex.

Speaker 1

Goodness.

Speaker 3

I have been attending the meetings of the New York Historical Society for nearly three years and have not heard one new or advanced scientific thought. Although many distinguished scholars have visited the city. Having been a life member of the Society, I can no longer be silent on the conditions which exist in an organisation of which I should be proud, but of which I am ashamed. I hear on all sides that the society is dead or moribund. Instead of being in the front rank of similar organisations in the United States, it is in the rear. Some Members may be satisfied with present conditions. I am not. Many have told me they have resigned because. Of them. Only a few attend meetings because they are uninteresting and dull, and instead of an imposing edifice filled with treasures from old New York, what do we find? Only a deformed monstrosity filled with curiosities, ill arranged and badly assorted. And we ought to have another committee to rearrange the collections. And enlarge them properly.

Speaker 2

That's a pretty damning quote there, isn't it? So she was actually seems to be very clever and a serious lady, and she needed to be. So I'm sure her lace work and create was fantastic.

Speaker 1

Yeah. Croquet.

Speaker 2

Cliche. She prepaid free Katie no. Yeah. So those are strong words, but what can what can she tell us about playing cards and is the devil involved? Do you know where playing cards originated?

Speaker 1

No.

Speaker 2

May. OK, that's good. That's why you're here today. So the exact origins are on main and. Overtime, like people's ideas or opinions or understanding, has changed. And what we see as playing cards today which you love and collect, isn't how they've always looked. That's when we talked to Lee. You mentioned some of that well, didn't they? So long before the cards, I've had cards of any form in Europe. They were actually being used in Asia, and China may laid claim to producing the earliest ancestors of today's cuts. And some early accounts include one from the Chengdu Tong, which was a Chinese encyclopaedia from 1678, and it states that cards were invented around the 1120s during the Song dynasty, and they were as an amusement for the emperor's concubines and maybe a more reliable account. They comes from 1320 in illegal. Compilation called the Dan Yang Zing Zang Guccio Diane Zang.

Speaker 1

Otherwise, Nazi Danyang Chengxiang drew child Yang Zang.

Speaker 2

Thank. And it reports a case from the 17th of July 1294 in which two gamblers were arrested along with the wooden printing blocks that they were using for creating cards.

Speaker 1

So they arrested the printing blocks. It's like like when they arrested a coconut. That happened at some point somewhere in the. I remember that.

Speaker 2

And pigs were put on trial as well. No, no, they, they they didn't arrest the printing blocks, just the people. And they confiscated the printing blocks and the paper along with them because, like, as the story of cards about history, like gambling has always been part of it and playing games. And people tried to crack down at different times. So the fact that the authorities were cracking down and this means that they must have actually been using cards for a while for it to become like distributed enough to become a big problem.

Speaker 1

Ohh that's cool.

Speaker 2

Yes, there's a picture here of some early cards and you can actually see kind of a hint there, can't you at cards today?

Speaker 1

Yeah, that that will be in the show nights, I imagine.

Speaker 2

Yeah, we'll be. So what can you see on those?

Speaker 1

People. Uh, a. Different symbols like, well, as a fish on one of them, then on other ones. There seems to be coins, so that seems like they're counting the one the ace, the two the like 3 all the numbers.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And. Yeah, some writing as well.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Oh alright. So in like that school in primary school.

Speaker

Hmm.

Speaker 1

We had some Mandarin lessons and they showed us some numbers. I think there's numbers on the cards, like those you see the lines.

Speaker 2

Uh-huh.

Speaker 1

I think these are numbers there we.

Speaker 2

Go. Yeah, that makes sense. Actually, it's. There's always been like a numerical component to cards. Yeah, but you notice the shape. There's very different. So they're very long and. Thin, aren't they like? A bookmark? Yeah, like a bookmark. Exactly. Yeah, they could. That meant they could be found out really easily in the hand. So they're good for playing games. Maybe you had quite a few cards. And.

Speaker 1

Next, we're off to India. Another possible origin of playing cards. We should really be using The Time Machine for this. It's a bit dusty, isn't it?

Speaker 2

We should be. It is. Yeah. It needs a service.

Speaker 1

Yeah, we'll we'll have to go back in time to get the service because they don't do it anymore.

Speaker 2

Oh, that's paradox. That's dangerous. Yeah.

Speaker 1

Anyway, chess was invented in India in the 6th century. There were many similar games played on chequered boards. Some of these used round discs beautifully decorated with images of people and animals instead of figs.

Speaker 2

I'm gonna have some pics in the show notes. They're great, aren't they?

Speaker 1

They they look like coins sort of fancy coloured. It's like if you had a coin but had all the colours and everything. On it, I guess.

Speaker

Yes.

Speaker 1

Oh yeah, like a costar, yeah.

Speaker 2

Case that I say yeah.

Speaker 1

They're using a game called Ganja. It is derived from the Farsi word kanji offer, which means playing cards. Missus Rensselaer wrote in her book.

Speaker 2

OK, we don't have a quote for this one. So I will have to try and do the voice. They are painted on ivory and the backs are gilded. They are numbered the same as tarot cards. This pack contains 7 suits, which are sons means, crowns, cushions, harps, letters and sword. I'm not doing an impression of. Brie here, by the way.

Speaker 1

Not even to an impression of anyone.

Speaker 2

No. Of each of these suits there are 10 new rule cards and two court cards which appear to represent a sovereign and a general.

Speaker 1

These may not look like our modern day cars and sheep and material, but the arrangement into suits like we use now is closer.

Speaker 2

We'll probably never know exactly what the origins of playing cards are, and there probably wasn't a single one. Is what we have today is a collection and amalgamation of many ideas and games from different cultures, isn't it? But how do they reach Europe? I mean, did Marco Polo pick him up on his travels in China?

Speaker 1

Prisoners, maybe. Or the the Silk Road.

Speaker 2

Yeah, I think coming down the Silk Road. Yeah, that makes sense. There's a lot of trade there. And with the Venetians as well. They would be trading with Arabic traders. And Italy was a really important centre of printing as well, so you could have, if you got Venetian traders coming in and there's like printing facilities around there and they just got these cars in these games, you could see the locals wanting to print them there and and one possible theory or idea is that they came via Egypt and the Mamluks. And the 14 and 15 hundredths. Now I've got an image here which also be in the shade nights of some absolutely beautiful cards. They're lovely, aren't they?

Speaker 1

They look like put marks again though, but they they.

Speaker 2

Look nice. They're covered in intricate, hand drawn and painted patterns, which are really typical of Islamic art. And there's rich Blues and golds and wonderful hand painted floral images and geometric shapes on them. And whilst they're probably more detailed than the typical pack that you'll think of today. The style.

Speaker 1

Not quite, because I think the back design of a lot of cards have a lot of detail like this stuff. OK, that's the front.

Speaker 2

This is the front, though. Yeah. Yeah. So forget about the Kickstarter ones that are really elaborate.

Speaker 1

And these are hand painted, I imagine.

Speaker 2

Yes, yes, they are. They're also quite big because they are 25 by. 14 1/2 centimetres.

Speaker 1

That is quite big.

Speaker 2

So you could see that maybe the games being played all their uses is a little bit different to what we had today.

Speaker 1

Maybe they're more decorative. Or like something they own potentially.

Speaker 2

Yeah, well, maybe, yeah, they were used perhaps in the Royal Court or something. And yeah, they were luxury items that people aimed. Can you tell what suit this is?

Speaker 1

Coins.

Speaker 2

Like cops.

Speaker 1

Well, ohh, that's a hit around things.

Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You see the Fatima? Yeah. We also had Queens, though, and scimitars, which are type of sword. And they have Paleo sticks. Say not what we have today, but they are divided into 4 suits of 13 cards each, which gives a total of.

Speaker 1

A number.

Speaker 2

13 * 4. 52 well done, yes, which is how many cars do you have in a deck today, excluding Jacobs?

Speaker

Yay.

Speaker 1

52.

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 1

Whenever I'm recording the podcast, I always do bad maths, but when we're just doing it normally or actually quite good.

Speaker 2

It's the pressure I'm trying to think of the what's going on, so they have the cars one to 10, then they have a second new tenant, a left tenant. I said that to my granny, Andy King. But the court cards, they're not pictorial and instead of the ranks are actually written on them. Because in Islamic art you don't have imagery of. People. But that's not the only writing on the cards. They also have rhyming aphorisms, which they don't rhyme with the translation, unfortunately. But there's a couple here with the sword of happiness. I shall redeem a beloved who will afterwards take my life. Look at how wonderful my game is and my dress. Extraordinarily beautiful. I will as pearls and a string be lifted in the hands of kings, Sir. Quite pretty. And the phrases that use. Would you want those on your cards to day?

Speaker

Hmm.

Speaker 1

No, because I like clean designs.

Speaker 2

With the Mamluks Sultanate controlling like Egypt and parts of the Levant, there's naturally contact and trade with Europe, and then the spread of ideas and many consider these mammoth cards to be the ancestors of modern European cards and I think are really beautiful and another way that Muslim playing cards may have entered. Europe was via the Moors in southern and central. Plane. Do you remember last time I put a towel on the table in front of you when we recorded?

Speaker 1

Oh yeah, I had to wrap it in it.

Speaker 2

Yeah. And a knife. OK, so that's how it isn't for your tears.

Speaker 1

If if you don't understand the context of that, go back and listen to the episode, because that that's a bit ominous.

Speaker 2

Yeah. So can you make up the towel, please? And what do you find inside? Is it another knife?

Speaker 1

No, it's a Moorish deck of playing cards. Let's just do some quick Asimo.

Speaker

Anton is now opening the deck next to the microphone.

Speaker 1

It's not opening.

Speaker 2

Whilst he struggles with anything that deck uh, what you have in front of you there when your hands is the recreation of a very important deck of cards. Now these probably date from around 1420 and they were actually found as an uncut sheet of carts. So they were never actually completed.

Speaker 1

That means that they've used those printing techniques, though, where they put it all on a sheet.

Speaker 2

Which is obviously perfect for mass production and also consistency of the design. But the ones that you got there, they may actually be a Christian copy of the original designs and she had a lot of mixed cultures in Spain. And Han has now cut into the cellophane surrounding the cards. He's carefully sitting back down.

Speaker

Come back. OK.

Speaker 2

It's back. His headphones are going on. Half our listenership I love in this other half I hating it.

Speaker 1

Yeah. And the other half of it. Confused.

Speaker 2

Yeah, it was three hearts.

Speaker 1

That's how you get the. Listens.

Speaker 2

Nice.

Speaker 1

OK, anyway.

Speaker 2

So can you tell what suits are on those cards?

Speaker 1

That looks like coins. We might. We might have some photos.

Speaker 2

Uh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we'll do some basic like.

Speaker 1

Yeah, that's definitely swords.

Speaker 2

Yeah. Cups, yeah.

Speaker 1

Whatever those.

Speaker 2

Are and whatever, exactly, whatever those are. So you've got swords, cups, discs or coins. And what is either a curved club or possibly a horn or something? Not exactly sure what it is, and they're basically simpler versions of the Mamluk designs. There's a side by side here and you can see how the inspirations come across, can't you? But they are much simpler. So why are these cards so important? It's because they actually bridge the gap between Arabic cards and European cards, and that deck is actually the only known deck discovered that bridges this particular part. So really important in history of playing cards.

Speaker 1

Yeah, because without these we that would have been. Even more of a mystery of how they.

Speaker 2

Got to Europe. Uh, yeah. You can even trace maybe a line back to the Chinese cards on these as well because you got like, a sword shaped emblem going all the way through them. Haven't you?

Speaker

Hmm.

Speaker 2

So there's some Chinese cards through to Arabic and through to Italian have this picture in the Senate, so you can see. And Speaking of which, I believe that you have some. The European history of playing cards, didn't you?

Speaker

Yes.

Speaker 1

So we'll have our. Pictures for some reference in the shows of the cars that we've just got and on our Patreon, we might take some other like super amazing pictures because I wanna. Do that OK. All of these cars and some other ones as well, yes, this is a nice, nice thing for them. OK. There are limited references to playing cards prior to the 1370s in European writings, but suddenly there are accounts from Belgium, Germany, Spain and Italy where the games are mentioned. And. We have already looked at how they entered Spain, but Italy was another important entry points. The combination of Venetian traders and Italy being a centre of printing led to their production and distribution and it seems they spread quickly with some of the earliest records talking about how they and other games were banned. Too much gambling? In 1377, a Swiss Dominican Friar wrote of a game comprising of four Seated Kings, each one holding a certain sign in their hands. Each king would have two. Mascali cards under them and 10 more cards with numbered PIPS, one to 10, totaling 52 cards.

Speaker 2

Yes, I think the martially must be like Marshall and like the Knights of the nave.

Speaker 1

Yeah. There were other pacts ascribed with 5 or 6 kings of different suits or containing. Means what's interesting is these cards show human imagery, so must have been produced in Europe, and their manufacture and use must have been spreading so. If Islamic culture don't show thee human imagery, they show other things.

Speaker 2

Ah.

Speaker 1

There's another reference from Italy.

Speaker 2

In the year 1379, there was blood to Verbo, a game of cards in which the Saracen language is called nearby, says a card game.

Speaker 1

The written references to cards spread and become more common with different places, banning them or taxing their sale. So they would tax the aces on cards so you could get a deck of cards, but if you wanted the ace or the spades or whatever, you'd have to get it like stamps or something, and officially.

Speaker 2

Uh.

Speaker 1

Tax paid for.

Speaker 2

Ah, that's interesting. So when I was reading about Thomas Delray, which recover a little bit later, there was a mention of him having to go and get, I think it's getting the cards registered or something. So for tax reasons.

Speaker 1

But it wasn't just a game for peasants. In 1392, Kim Charles the 6th of France swear he's a peasant. Ohh. OK, never mind. Uh paid 56 souls policies for three packs of gilded cards for his amused. Do you know what Edward the 4th banned from being important to England in 1463?

Speaker 2

Lamas, no.

Speaker 1

Playing cards, dice and tennis balls, obviously. He did this to protect English Craftsman.

Speaker 2

So is that protecting English manufacturers from cheaper imports, or is it protecting them from playing too many games? Yes.

Speaker 1

The cards didn't yet have the familiar hearts, diamonds, spades and clubs, though. Hearts arrived in a French deck from 1480 that showed hearts and Crescent moons, which betrayed their Arabic origins.

Speaker 2

That's interesting. So yeah, the the symbols are starting to morph then.

Speaker 1

But distinct regional suits were beginning to appear. Spanish and Italian decks kept their strong, mumbled and Moorish influences with swords and cups common. But the German cars had acorns, birds, bells, flowers, hearts, hunty equipment as well. Which sounds a lot cooler than our. Yeah, now, but it was LA French who first standardised hearts, diamonds, spades and clubs in the late 15th century. A benefit of these was only two different colours when needed to identify them, simplifying the printing process and they would simple shapes as well to print to the French suits and the style of cards would then spread throughout Europe and globally become the most commonly used to day. The different suits have different meanings as well. Hearts hearts typically symbolise emotions, love and moral. Spiritual or religious core of person?

Speaker 2

And some historical interpretations of hearts being linked to the clergy representing virtue and the moral force of the human spirit.

Speaker 1

Whereas diamonds often associated with wealth, material riches, or the merchant class, they might also represent clarity, invincibility, and purity, reflecting the properties of the gemstone.

Speaker 2

That's right. And they have been suggested to symbolise the merchant class or the societal focus on wealth, material prosperity.

Speaker 1

Clubs are thought to represent the peasantry, while common folk possibly symbolising growth, nature or the agricultural realm, giving their resemblance to a Clover or a.

Speaker 2

Tree and historically they might symbolise the working class or military considering the club or Clover could be seen as a kurgal or. A symbol of force. A cudgel? Yeah. I can't read it. Could have been seen as a cudgel or a simple force.

Speaker 1

Do you mean a cultural? Spades are often associated with the military warfare or the aristocracy. They might symbolise the mind, intelligence or death, given their pointed shape and resemblance to a spearhead or a.

Speaker 2

Leaf, they're sometimes interpreted to represent the nobility or military, symbolising power. Strength and the inevitability of death. So do you have a favourite? Which one would you be?

Speaker 1

Probably spades.

Speaker 2

So what do you what's your opinion on the standardisation of these seats you just said earlier that the gentleman seem more exciting?

Speaker 1

Have fun. Ones if they could be printed in a slightly simplified, simplified way then I think would be good.

Speaker 2

Yeah, I think it's a bit of a shame that the French ones have become pretty common. Thank you. And Todd, I think it's time for a local link. Now, do you remember our episode about Warren Delarue, the man who looked at their son?

Speaker 1

Yep. If our listeners don't or I just listen to this episode, go to episode 33.

Speaker 2

Yes. And do you remember what business he was in?

Speaker 1

Printing.

Speaker 2

That's right. Yeah. And what company did this dad set up? Della. Reprinting pretty much. Yeah. DeLeon. OK. OK. OK. Yeah. So we've got a little bit about his dad here, who is a very important printer. Now. Some of the cards that you have, particularly your ones from Kickstarter, they've got, like, amazing foiling and then bossing and everything can all sorts, don't they? But Thomas, Delray Warren's dad. He could actually. One of the men responsible for the incredible cards that we have today. Now he's born over here in Guernsey in 1793. But in 1818 he moved to London to make straw hats, but thankfully he didn't stick with that for very long and moved into bookbinding. And the paper manufacture and printing. And his company, Delarue and Co, they were not ordinary printers because they actually produced like stamps and passports and money. And this is stuff that needs really, really serious printing. So it demands, like the highest level of standards, doesn't. And in 1831, he filed a patent for certain improvements in making or manufacturing and ornamenting playing cards. So something special, dare I say magical, was about to happen.

Speaker 1

Foreshadowing.

Speaker 2

His painting was a big deal. Not only for playing cards, but for colour printing in general, and then he detailed many improvements such as creating better quality oil colours and the enamelling of carts. And with his experience, cards went from basic woodblock printing on flimsy cards, which were coloured by hand and watercolour, and stencilled to much more modern letterpress and colour printing technologies. And his an extract from his instructions.

Speaker 1

Take one gallon of old linseed oil. The older the batter and boil it very slowly for three or four hours in an iron pot or vessel, occasionally igniting it and starring it during the whole process with an iron ladle. In some instances, I find it necessary to differ few slices of stale bread just prior to ambulation taking place, which facilitates the operation when it is cold, it should be the consistency of very thick treacle.

Speaker 2

Thank you, Antoine. Or was that Thomas himself?

Speaker 1

No. Because I doubt he sounded had that accent. If he's from Kansas.

Speaker 2

Did think he ate the bread?

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

Now, one of the difficulties with printing several colours is ensuring that the plates are in registration. That means all the colours are lining up when you print on a bit of paper and Thomas solved this problem several years before it was painted by a man called Godfrey Engelman Moorhouse in his printing facilities, he would even use steam power. So he is properly embracing the industrial revolution. So Thomas, Delray basically invented modern colour printing and his son invented the first proper light bulb. I mean, that's pretty cool. So check out, you know, episode and Warren for that. And his fear of his early designs. What do you think of them and what do you notice about the king?

Speaker 1

I like them. They have big eyes. I like the little line in the PIP and the King of Hearts was known as the Suicide King. He's stabbing himself on the head with a sword. Well, basically what happened is. I think originally one well this is one of the ideas. Originally it was they were holding an axe or something like that and because it got drawn so badly before printing and everything, they eventually just turned into a sword that was in the King's head. Pretty much.

Speaker 2

Yeah, so it gets nicknamed the Suicide King. So there's a bit of personality in the faces. There. Aren't there? And that's something that Tom Staley wanted to try and do, but there's a really famous card player around at the time called Mrs Battle and her name as appropriate. And she didn't like the designs at all. And she made sure that was 9. But they didn't put Thomas off innovating, and in 1844 he began A20 year collaboration with a designer called Owen James. I bet he's Welsh. The name like that. Until this point playing cards are generally had really playing backs, but this would show any dirt or marks on the card really identifiable when you're playing games. So he commissioned Owen to create ornate images and patterns for the card backs and many of them are floral and they're actually hard. Backing away to the old Mamluk. And there's couple things written about the cards here. Mr Diller's idea have been to excite and cultivate the public taste in these more elegant forms of printing. Formerly in England, few or no manufacturers had thought of going to the expense of employing designers. And even Charles Dickens himself wrote about Thomas Hillary's playing cards. Can you do a Dickens impression?

Speaker 1

Yes, each card back forms a dainty little picture worthy of being regarded as such, irrespective of the main purpose of the card.

Speaker 2

That was uncanny. It was like Dickens was here.

Speaker 1

OK, these pictures.

Speaker 2

Yes, these are the card backs, but you can see how they got some of the hints of their Mamluk ones.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I don't like.

Speaker 2

Them. No, they're they're off there era. Definitely. I think they're a bit gaudy. Some of them. But where? Thomas was quite clever, even designed, some not with two different colours like red and black for the Pepsi. Did a four colour one to help people with poor eyesight. Identify each card. So a lot of thought going there.

Speaker

Hmm.

Speaker 2

And there's lots more that we could talk about, Thomas, Hillary. But we're not going to. So that might be a whole episode in. Itself as another Gunson great, yes.

Speaker 1

Which we came up with.

Speaker 2

We did for you there first.

Speaker 1

You know who you are.

Speaker 2

Oh wow, we are joking, yes.

Speaker 1

See. But we did come up with that.

Speaker 2

Yeah, you came up with that.

Speaker 1

Yeah, it did.

Speaker 2

Yeah. Like.

Speaker 1

3. Years ago. Something else?

Speaker 2

Must be. Yeah. God, it's been going a long time. This podcast, and they're still very amateur.

Speaker 1

Still got to do, yeah.

Speaker 2

Anyway, something I love about cards is that whilst their designs have changed, the basic premise and fundamentals of them hasn't altered that much for maybe hundreds or thousands of years. And like Lee said when we chatted to him like how many other things do you have in your house that can't say little since your grandparents might have played with them in the same way at your age.

Speaker 1

Because they're just perfectly done. Yeah, but still customizable. Like with card box and everything.

Speaker 2

Yeah, they're small. They're pocketable. They're once mass production came in that's cheap to produce and. There's a quote here from William Chateau in his 1848 facts and speculations about playing cards. Nor the game has been ever so generally played by people. Both sexes, young, old, rich and poor is perhaps as extensively diffused as the use of tobacco, and is certainly indulged in by a greater variety of persons. You're not really interested in playing games with cards, are you? You're more interested in the magic that can be performed by them, aren't you?

Speaker 1

Yeah. Yes.

Speaker 2

And that's something else that I love as well, which for me I like the idea that there might be like this amazing trick performed today that leaves me really mystified and astounded and entertained. And. And maybe that same trick was being performed by a magician, maybe a couple of 100 years ago, and left his audience for the same feeling. That's a lovely idea. So how about we end with the magician?

Speaker

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2

Actually, how about we end with a completely new feature time for a famous Anton?

Speaker 1

Dun Dun Dun. Yep, that's right. We're doing a feature on myself. The famous Anton magician. Good golly gosh.

Speaker 2

Is that ominous? You could do a feature on our patron.

Speaker 1

Yes, actually, yes. If you would like to. Here our other magician go to patron, subscribe to. I imagine our one dog. One, you'll get that the rest of this episode and some more rewards as well. So go over there. That is what just gone to patron. The curiosity of what the current.

Speaker 2

Yes. Of the child you you're just desperate to get people to. Sign up, aren't you? No, I just. Think it's quite cool? Yeah, it's quite cool. That's very. Cool. It's our patron.

Speaker 1

Especially if they do it, so do it.

Speaker 2

Yeah. Anyway, so. His aunt, unashamed. And you are a bit like Pinelli, who will be the feature of our patron. I have to say it. OK, so we're going to talk about Andon Zoomlock, AKA Professor Zamloch, AKA.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

Zamloch the great. So what would your stage name be?

Speaker 1

And on the great with my beautiful assistant father, the little.

Speaker 2

Thank you. I think you can ask what.

Speaker 1

My stage name was. I was wondering what you're pointing at. You. What's your stage name going to be?

Speaker 3

I.

Speaker 2

I think I'll be the Rick Tatar and my amazing mentalism powers are used to astound the audience and then take over the country. Yeah. Anyway, back to Anton Zamloch. He was born in Austria in the mid 1800s and he got his first his the magic as a young boy when a magician, Ignaz Kaitner towards the village, he lived. In. A hammock he actually lived in a a Slovenian speaking region. And the magician only made German, so he wanted one of the local lads to help him out. And after an afternoon of training, Anton was tasked with hiding under a table and passing items up to Kattner. And from this his love of magic was born and actually said he never saw the amazement of watching a show. His first interact with Magic was understanding how it worked, which you've spoken to me before about how you see magic different now.

Speaker 1

That would be a weird way to get introduced to it. You'd understand it not as like how did that happen? But. Like. Ohh, that's cool how they came up with this illusion rather than how do they do.

Speaker 2

Yeah. That illusion. Yeah. Yeah. Seeing it from the other side. But his his mother was quite worried that he had sold his soul to the devil.

Speaker 1

Like four years.

Speaker 2

Old. Yeah. And then a few years later, when he was called up for an army examination in his mid teens, he actually threatened that he would run away. So to avoid embarrassment, his dad packed him off to his uncle, who lived in San Francisco. And his love of magic. It hadn't died, and a few years later, when he was working as a printer, he decided to print thousands of handbills which read.

Speaker 1

Amusing and mysterious zamloch, the Great Austrian wizard from the Imperial Court of Vienna, and his series of new and marvellous wonders, et cetera.

Speaker 2

Et cetera, yes. So looking at that, it seems like a lot of magicians like to make big statements. Yeah. Yeah, he would write later of this, like, the beginning of his time as a magician. I will never forget the day when Carter brought them from the printing office. I hastily broke into the package to open them up and have a look. It was the first time that I saw my name in print.

Speaker 1

Fixing.

Speaker 2

And I have to say I was very proud, putting it mildly. Sorry to any of our German or Austrian listeners there. So he decided to go on tour. With a couple of his friends and become a magician in in America and basically start touring around the Wild West and going into places like Utah and the City of Park City. And every new town that he would arrive in, he would seek out the theatre and where to perform in this case the theatre. Meena asked Zamloch what sort of show he had and when he answered magic, the owner said.

Speaker 1

Yee Haw. Well, my friend, go back to where you came from. This town ain't big enough. The oh, no, no.

Speaker 2

Well, my friend, go back to where you came from. This town isn't partial to that kind of shows. The rent is $10.00, but you ain't make in $0.50.

Speaker 1

Very Wild West.

Speaker 2

Thank you. So they had a bit of a negotiation and Sam not managed to get him down to only $5 and he would even promised to pay in advance. And then he managed to fill the theatre as so many people wanted to watch so much so that the local silver miners, they actually bought an extra benches to put at the back of the theatre so they could. Much, and as he continued touring around the Wild West, he also tells this story of another trick that he performed. I did a trick in which I got a boy to come on stage and pretend he give him a lesson in juggling. I take a dinner plate and do different stunts with it and finish by spinning it on the tip of my finger, after which I insist the boy try it too. He attempts to spin out on his finger and of course drops it and the plate breaks into many pieces. I pretend to be angry at the boy. And scold him for his awkwardness. I compel him to pick up the pieces and wrap them in newspaper. I then put the parser into a box and place the box on the boys head, Billy, now Billy's his brother-in-law, takes a picture frame in his hand and stands behind the boy. And I shoot the pieces out-of-the-box into the picture frame. So this is a gun shooting at the boys head box in the boys head.

Speaker 1

I was going to say if there's anything else.

Speaker 2

At at the report of the gun, the plate instantly appeared inside the frame. And now the boy opens the box and finds it empty. But taking a second look at the plate, I discover pieces missing. I asked the boy if whether he was sure he picked up all the pieces. He of course says that he did, and then accused him of keeping one piece and hiding it from me. He denies it. By this time the boy is getting very angry. I accuse him of having the piece in his pocket and tell him to search his pockets. He does so. Very reluctantly, and to his astonishment, he finds the missing piece in his pocket. I pretend to scold him more severely for hiding the piece, but this time he's ready to. Fight.

Speaker 1

You have it at gunpoint and stop him from fighting. They will sit down and watch the rest of the show well.

Speaker 2

I'm. I next place the piece into a large mouthed pistol and fire at the plate which instantly becomes whole and perfectly restored. Then Billy takes it out of its frame and lays it on the table. At the finish of this, I say to the audience if any of you have broken glass or crockery wear, send it here to Morrow and I will mend it. And of course, believing that anybody of any intelligence would know that I was joking. But he discovered that the next morning there were three girls came to him holding packages of, like, breaking kitchenware and glass and things with the wishes from their mothers, had them fixed as they had to say to them, that unfortunately they already packed away the pistol and. He couldn't do it. And you can see here there's a face of him. There's a real twinkle in his eye, isn't there? You know, he's mischievous. So yeah, I think actually wrote some memoirs, but I don't think they've been published. It's the same. They offer the amazing window on the Mormons in Utah at the time, and it talks about different times, where he'll be sleeping on floors as he's travelling in, like, an outhouse. And they'd be like a fit of onions next and. It'd be really cold and you'd go and want to wash in the morning and then the pattern rains the the bar or whatever say, oh, there's a pump over there, but it be freezing. Called and there'd be another like widow Macintosh if he remembers really dearly finished travelling. She goes oh, if I know some gentleman would be coming. I would have put on a great feast for you. But like the most amazing meal anyway. But she's kept apologising. There's another time where he he would often go to the newspapers.

Speaker

Yeah.

Speaker 2

Before he performed so, he went to one of the local newspapers in the area and he performs his tricks and then they see his tricks. He gets free advertising. So they want to write about him. And he made a box of cigars vanished, and they nearly shot him for banditry. But with all of his amazing shapes that he put on, he would go on to become one of the greatest magicians of the age. And some people actually said he was the greatest magician of the age. And there's a great little quote here from the Oakland Tribune of 1879. The continued success which Van Block the magician has met at the Deats Opera House and this week is almost unprecedented in the history of public entertainments given in a. England. His extravagances of magic were so swiftly executed and so mysteriously subtle that two centuries ago he could have been burned at the stake as a necromancer of the blackest of arts, and a disciple of his Satanic Majesty. But in the age of Anna Domini 1879, he is a pleasant gentleman. The honest entertainer. The world does move on. And I think it shakes out really good. I reckon it'd be quite popular today.

Speaker 1

Especially with the plate trick.

Speaker 2

Yeah, it's really good. He did another one where he would make an omelette in the top half. Somebody from the audience, and they'd mix it all up, and then he would hand the hand. He would hand the hat back in perfect condition. Nice. And clean but.

Speaker 1

He he seems like a comedy magician as well.

Speaker 2

Yes, that's, he says in one of his posters that this comedy and stuff there. It feels really modern to me. So yeah, with that egg trick, he would have his bum willing assistant who was his brother-in-law Billy, and he would copy the trick trying to expose how it was done so he'd break the eggs and the hat of another person from the audience, and then they would end up smearing like egg yolk and white all round it. And then he'll say. Don't know how to finish the trick and get the hat.

Speaker 1

Back it's like when people would say like, oh, can I borrow your watch? Can I borrow your credit cards? They do the trick. The watch disappears, and they just walk off saying. And then they're like. Then they get told to come back and then they just say I know I just forgot. How to do the rest of the trick?

Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1

Obviously the watch. Just in their pocket or something like, well, like, back on the wrist. Yeah, that would be good.

Speaker 2

But he actually wrecked these hats, though he removed them, so he even did it once to a local governor in Canada, then in another trick, Billy, who his brother-in-law would clumsily knock over all the equipment that was on the stage, and it would reveal Sam knock secret.

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2

So I'm not quite sure how we'd do this, but what I read was that he would stuff his brother-in-law into a double barrel shotgun. Don't know how he fit persons that so maybe a big sort of comical 1, I don't know. And he'd fire a target then all that would be left of the man was a wart to do other things. Like he would trick kids into thinking that he would cut their noses.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

And apparently it's really realistic. So I don't know if you had fake blood and things as well. Or other times he would get like a guy from the audience who's really shy and say, oh, can you hold this case of jewels for me? And then later on, I guess he left an awkwardly standing on the stage for a while. I hope so. And when he opened up the case again it be it have a ladies corset in. So. It would be like reading fasting for the guy on the stage. Yeah. So one of his posters said. Enjoy yourself while you live, for ye will be dead a long time, so I like his humour. It's really good. So I think he's he's a bit of a legend. I mean, for me, he's like the ace of spades of magicians. So what do you think of him?

Speaker 1

I think he's quite funny. I wish that he was a bit more known about and he he seems to be quite a comedy magician with effects that are like flabbergasting but also funny.

Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah. There's so many stories of him. I'd love to find his memoirs. Anything you want to say, mate?

Speaker 1

Well, I have a magic trick.

Speaker 2

Ohh OK, I'm ready.

Speaker 1

Might work alright listeners. I have a challenge for you. Bit of a magic trick as well. I want you to think of the first playing card that comes to your head just the first straight away. Keep down your head, draw a picture, and I want you to write us a message on either. Twitter or X, which you can find us at.

Speaker 2

Accurate air pod. Yeah, I'll go to our website where you can find all our contact details to the qvar child com.

Speaker 1

Yep.

Speaker 2

And let us know what card.

Speaker 1

You thought of, and if you're on Patreon, I think you can write a. Message to us in there? Uh-huh. Yeah. So send us that and once you've done that. I think your cars would have been either the ace of spades or the Queen of Hearts.

Speaker 2

Was that your card? That was my card. I was thinking of the ace of hearts.

Speaker 1

That's not how it. Works.

Speaker 2

Yeah, very good. Yeah. So a bit of magic there. So if Anton did get your card correctly, please write to us and let us know because we love hearing from our. Listeners.

Speaker 1

If not, then don't write to us because that that probably didn't work. But if only people who it did work for right to us and it. Seemed like it did work. A big thank you to three from Pontefract for reading Mrs Renz, Sir. Lee at the start of the episode. Go check out the excellently named Pontefract podcast at pontefract.podbean.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 2

Let's play that trailer.

Speaker 4

Hello I'm fry.

Speaker 3

And I'm Brie from pontifex, a Papal History podcast ranking all of the popes, from Peter de France. In each episode, we explore the life of a single Pope and contextualise their papacy in world history.

Speaker 4

And then we rate them based on the success of their papacy, how scandalous they were, their impact on the secular world, what their face looked like and more. They may even pick up a new patron sainthood on the.

Speaker 3

Way in the end, our most impactful. Papal bull worthy popes will battle it out for the keys to the pearly gates and to be the Poppiest Pope who ever popped.

Speaker 4

You can find Pontifex at pontifex.podbean.com or wherever you find your podcast, and on the Agora podcast network.

Speaker 2

And you could pick up a patron sainthood by becoming a patron.

Speaker 1

For them or for us?

Speaker 2

Yes. Yeah, they're, they're, they're lovely. So you should definitely listen to that podcast. Really good.

Speaker 1

I need to listen to that. I'm still trying to finish two tyres ranking at the moment.

Speaker 2

Yes. And I'm still waiting for you to get through to the final episode so I can. Listen to it, yeah. Anyway, yeah. Thank you for listening. Umm. So what do you think, Anton, any any summary on playing cards in history and what you think of them?

Speaker 1

I like playing cards because. They you can design them in cool ways. I think they they've evolved quite a lot, but not like in a super drastic way compared to other things that have evolved like humans. So they've always sort of been paper cards more often than not. And. And they've had their suits. But even the suits have changed and little things like that. And there's so many different, customizable ways you can make cards.

Speaker 2

What I like and. Just thinking when we chatted to Lee Asher as well, and how there is something special about magic and that trickery and that it is something physical so you could see in 100. Years. Time. If everything started to go more and more digital is magic going to hold an even more special place like something. In the real, actual world, that can still deceive. You're tricky. I think that's they might get an even more special quality. And like you showed me, a lot of your magic tricks. You do as you're learning and practising, and there's still things that like, wow, have you done that it's really cool. And, yeah, so they're amazing little things.

Speaker

Hmm.

Speaker 2

Yeah. So thank you very much for listening and we will be back with another episode. With possibly another famous Anton, as I think I'm going to try and find a famous Anton for everything. We talk about from now on.

Speaker 1

Yeah, that'll be the new segment that could be like our picture on extras actually.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Speaking of which, if if you can't wait until our next episode. Which might be a well depends how busy we are. Then go over to our Patreon again. Subscribe again.

Speaker 2

Yeah, patreon.com/Q tripod.

Speaker 1

Yeah, something along those lines. Also, we found a good thing for our site episode. So we'll do a short little extra on that. Another Anton thing. So go over to see what that is.

Speaker 2

Yeah. And you can follow us on Twix, which is Twitter X at.

Speaker 1

Pod.

Speaker 2

Also on Instagram at.

Speaker 1

Cure child pods.

Speaker 2

Our website is.

Speaker 1

The curiosity of. Child.com.

Speaker 2

Yeah, and yeah. So thanks very much for listening and we will be back soon. Please leave a review or something somewhere as well because podcast live or die by their reviews and independent podcast like us need support. Thank you. Goodbye. And we love you.

Speaker 1

Yes. Only if you subscribe to patron.

Speaker 2

Wow. So you can buy more cards, isn't it?

Speaker 1

Pretty much yes.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And so that we can get more nice things for our listeners as well. Yeah, well, so we do have some, some merchandise as well.

Speaker

Yes.

Speaker 1

Shop our dog.

Speaker 2

Oh, we do have merchandise. Yeah. Oh, my God.

Speaker 1

Let me say it again, shop.thecursorchart.com. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2

Yeah. OK. Thank you. Bye. Bye, bye. Anton's crying. OK, mate? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1

It's not your words. They're not that beautiful.